The ROAR Podcast: Alex Heriard-Dubreuil

# The ROAR Podcast: Alex Heriard-Dubreuil
**Guest:** Alex Heriard-Dubreuil
**Date:** 2026-08-20
**YouTube URL:** [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuUphS6NWAE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuUphS6NWAE)
**Source:** YouTube auto-generated captions (no speaker diarization)

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[00:02] For most of modern real estate history, owning a building meant one thing. Collecting the rent and private tenant renews. Alex Ariad Dubi has spent nearly three decades proving there's [music] a better question to ask. Today, Adam sits down with Alex who's the global chief investment officer at Search. Alex is a civil engineer by training who started his career in Paris, then joined Mural Lynch to invest in real estate across Europe. 10 years in banking, most

[00:34] of them in London, moving from plain vanilla office towers in Paris to London to development deals in central and eastern Europe. Then in 2008, he joined the real estate arm of the Arno family office, the family behind LVMH. 17 years building luxury anchored mixeduse projects around the world. 13 of them based in Hong Kong. What he learned there reshaped how he underwrites everything. Stop buying cash flow. Start understanding the customer.

[01:05] In this conversation, Alex explains what mixeduse development actually means and why it is not simply stacking an office on a hotel on a retail box. He walks through development yield cap rates and the match decides whether a project pencils. He makes a case for sports and entertainment real estate as an emerging asset class in its own right. And he explains why the strongest projects deliver two returns, not one. The return to investors and the return to community. I'm Bryce Clinton and this is

[01:36] the Roar Podcast. >> Welcome to the Roar Podcast. I'm your host, Adam Gman. With us today is Serge's global chief investment officer. I'll let him say his name because a it sounds better when he says it in in a beautiful French accent and B I definitely I don't want to butcher it as we're getting started. So Alex, welcome to the podcast. >> Thanks Adam and thanks for having me. And yes, so my name is Alex Dubo which is I agree quite difficult to pronounce

[02:07] but there we go. You need a French person in your team. So >> absolutely one. >> Yeah, exactly. Always good to have a French person on our team. one, thank you for joining us. Two, you know, you and I started around the same time at at Serge. So, we've both now been there for several months and excited to talk more about what we're working on together and what you're working on on your own at Serge, but we like to start the podcast like we always like to start the podcast, which is tell us a little bit about your background and how you got to the role that you're in today. >> Sure, happy to do so and and again,

[02:37] thanks for having me. So, so my background, so I'm a civil engineer. I I started my career in in Paris where I grew up and I was I was actually joined an American bank. So it was probably a sign here. But so I joined Maril Lynch to to to effectively invest in real estate across Europe. And it was it was interesting time because it was the late 90s early 2000 where there was still a very early it was still very early days for for the banks and they were very agile and they were trying to chase

[03:08] yields and and chase new deals. So more and more it was about to to to open new markets within the European environment and chasing more risk both from a capital structure point of view as well as from a from a type of investment. So from a I would say planned vanilla type of almost bond type of investment office buildings in Paris or London to a more exotic development in central eastern Europe which was back in 2007 2008 a

[03:38] very very uh big thing to to to do. So that was really a very very interesting stuff of my career. very lucky to have that because you give me both the I would say probably the ability to work in different environment both from I would say traditional western universe to a more exotic universe opening new markets and being and and build the discipline that you you need in an investment bank. So great 10 years spent most of it in London but I was I was covering the the different markets. So

[04:10] very very exciting and then actually in 2008 which was an interesting time to change uh platform I joined I joined the family office uh well actually the real estate unit of family office of Mr. Arno with the founder of LVH and I joined the team there to help building effectively a strategy around luxury retail and and creating mixed use project all around the world anchored by those uh those luxury uh elements. So obviously

[04:40] leveraging on the LVMH power but being a bit the Swissman there. So trying to effectively create the right product for not only the LVH brand but all the the retailers and I was for the 17 years I was stationed most of the time. I mean most of it in in Hong Kong actually 13 years. So great way to to learn new markets, great way to understand I would say Asia in particular the do and dance and and I think one of probably the the biggest chance I had to to spend so much time and and work with this incredible

[05:12] platform and team was to is to go beyond the traditional bone approach or cash flow approach that real estate investor had but starting to actually learn a little bit more about your customers and your consumer. consumers and your end user which sounds very normal these days. Every real estate investor will tell you they think that way but but back then was not and and I thought it was good because no no one better than than LVH group can really know about the customers. So great great great time

[05:44] again it was a it was a global role but but I I spent quite a lot of time in Asia and the in the in the US and Canada in particular. So, and after 26 or 27 years, yeah, I joined that church and it was it was almost like it was almost like a natural and I was not necessarily um going after sports in particular, but I was really I think for me I'm a thematic investor. I think you need to be differentiated. I think you need to be able to really play on on really

[06:15] strong tailwinds and and [clears throat] I think you need to be able to understand and to be operational and understand who is going to use your your premises, who needs it and and answer need effectively more than anything else. And and the more I've been talking to John, the more I realized that it was probably it was probably one one step ahead of most of the people where most of the people were thinking hospitality and now he was thinking experiential. So so yeah it was very natural very different environment very than my

[06:47] previous life but uh but but correct yeah so that's a bit my background very quickly. So, and there's a lot to we want to talk about across all that, particularly what you were talking about at the end, but you know, as I always like to say like to start from the beginning, you know, I'm relatively late coming to real estate. I have a data analytics background, a sports background. Came to surge after particularly after writing a white paper on mixeduse developments in sports, which we'll talk more about. But you seem to have a desire to look into real estate obviously civil engineering from a background of beginning. What was interesting to you about that? Why did

[07:18] you wanted to start your career both from a civil engineering perspective and then from a banking perspective looking at thinking about real estate? >> I think first and foremost is a tang tangible product. So I think I like I like investing in in in things that you can really get your hands around and I uh and something I like even more is the is the fact that is a people business as well. So I think when you combine the two, I think I was very very excited about being able to to uh to to to navigate in that universe. I mean when

[07:50] you start a career, you never know where you're going to end. So there were a bit of a also uh you know it it sounds very like thought through but obviously there's a lot of risk attached and and serendipity about all this but but frankly I think those two elements were paramount to somewhat my decision to be in that space and to remain more importantly in that space. Actually, >> one of the things that some of the member of our audience, particularly those who are younger and earlier in the career are thinking about somewhat of a a field change. You know, obviously

[08:21] engineering is now onetoone mapping on to finance. So, how did you decide that you wanted from your engineering background that you wanted to go into investment banking to start with? >> You need a little bit of luck as well. So, I was I was probably lucky in a way, but I just I think you have to seize opportunities. Uh for me real estate was relatively new uh into the banking world and and because of my civil engineer background because of my ability to understand the underlying assets I was I was effectively

[08:52] a value proposition to to the team and and and the financials you learn it on on on scratch and you learn it quite quickly. So I I that was you know I I started from almost the back door. I mean I was not necessarily on the on the financial front but but that you learn as you as you as you go. So >> talk a little bit more about real estate being relatively new to finance. I think people you know maybe associate that that obviously these are big capital intensive projects and the you know understanding what was you know

[09:23] particularly from a banking perspective in the late 90s early 2000s what was that process like and why were banks starting to look into real estate in detail? Yeah, it's a good question. So, I would say traditionally real estate was a bit passive uh from an investment point of view. So, when you buy an in I mean when you buy US it's a bit like similar to people when they buy their their residential you live in your in your place and you you don't really think about all this. I mean you pay your mortgage every month so you think about it but but the my point is that

[09:55] you don't always think about how to improve it or to to change things. And it was a case for institutional investors. They were they were just buying cash flows. Uh usually at that time the the the way lease were structured were long leases. So people were sitting on cash flow for 10 15 years depending on market. Actually every market is different and and when the the tenants were about to expire, I think what you were trying to do is you pray that the tenants continue. Obviously not just praying but

[10:27] you were negotiating with with uh with with with the tenants but you were not like thinking okay what if I change part of the floor plates and instead of you know doing an office and now I I bring like a a retail shop to create more reason for the office tenants to be happy maybe to create like a a more interesting environment. So things that have been evolving over time early in the '9495 on the back of I would say obviously a big financial crisis as well in the real estate especially in Europe.

[10:58] uh people were not very active and and more you you got more manager funds including in banks that were starting to to realize that you you can actually have a a fairly intense management style on the real estate and actually create revenue I mean and and revenue and extra revenues and and and don't forget also that 99 2000 you start to see the yield compress because of the interest rate compressing which was a huge benefit from from the real estate point of view as well. So a lot of people embark a lot

[11:29] of success made in in the real estate. This is why it's been there. So so so a lot of people have been so excited about that. >> Yeah. And you just started talking about a little bit about mixed use. You know, we use the term a lot that's being thrown around a lot in the sports industry. Not everybody really even knows what that means. You started to talk about that, but can you just explain literally what is mixeduse development? And when you're talking about yield compression, what does that mean for people who are just starting to learn about these terms particularly as real estate becomes more important in the sports industry? >> Yeah, sure. So, so, so mix is I mean as

[12:00] as I mean as as it says in the sentence is effectively you you you mix the different users to to create an environment where people have more reason to stay whether through living there, eating, shopping, working and now with the sports effectively enjoying a great time with with their friends watching a fantastic game. So actually when you say mixed us is effectively you you you you effectively mix those elements in order to create the right chemistry uh to attract your your eventually your customers because at the

[12:31] end of the day you want your tenants to be successful and for your tenants to be successful you want them to have the right foot traffic and in order to create the right foot traffic you need to create the right reason for people to come. So mixuse is not just about piling things is also which sounds sometimes people think is I just done an office office hotel and retail I think I should be there I think it's slightly more complex I mean there's a bit of art to it uh because you you need to make sure

[13:02] that you the the allocation between the different users as the right ones in order to serve the right purposes okay and so I think it comes with what is your vision what is your intention what what is your end goal and how you get there through both the how you structure it both how you conceive those those products as well as how you you fund those products >> obviously at Serge we do art and science obviously that's something you and I have worked on together in terms of determining the right mix for mixeduse development but you were talking about

[13:33] tenants and real estate again particularly for audiences particularly senior executives who are starting to really focus in and hone in on real estate for sports you mentioned tenants rental rates, yield compression. What are some of the core metrics you were even starting to look at? You mentioned learning in your first job, these core financial metrics. Can you just explain what they are and what you're looking for and why real estate ended up being a more attractive investment for institutional capital in ways you previously described, I think putting those metrics in that context provides even a deeper understanding.

[14:04] >> Well, I think unfortunately there's not, you know, one answer for for the situation. And I think first and foremost it depends the how you approach your your real estate investments whether you are a developer whether you an investor whether it's for your own use whether it's for you know creating those districts. So each each uh situation is slightly different which I mean makes our role quite exciting but also quite difficult. So this is why not everybody can really fully uh appreciate

[14:35] that unless they built a team around it to be able to really play in that in that field and and we try to be one of of those unique uh breed. But I would say if you if you if you if you think about from a development perspective one of the key key aspect is is looking at your development y margin and so how much it cost you to to build a product how much rents you're going to generate in that product. What is effectively if you were to sell that product down the line, what is the multiple to those

[15:06] those revenues you're generating which in in terminology in the real estate world you you talk about cap rate which is a percentage how much you can really you you get from a market point of view and then you you you look at your development margin and you decide whether it's sound and and in certain cases especially where you got very high inflation you got construction costs of the roof and sometimes your rent had been challenged. Well, it doesn't pan out. So, it's very difficult to do new

[15:36] new product. In other cases, these are fantastic situation. So, that's one way to to to to look at at things. That's a great summary and I definitely think that's helpful because we try to lay that out in previous podcasts and and other intellectual uh capital and content that we create. But that's exactly what we're talking about or what are the levers to push? Why is it so important? Why is it so difficult? What are you trying to maximize? Then we'll get into the art and science of mixeduse development and how you maximize rental

[16:06] incomes. How you can maximize the effectiveness of cap rate and and try to get cap rate compression to increase the returns on invested capital. Those are all things that you and John and the team talk about every day and I think it's helpful for our audience to get a perspective of what that means. So, want to continue on your career journey just transitioning back to that. Obviously, you mentioned 10 years. I don't want to just short change the 10 years you did in investment banking, but I think what's interesting and particularly more relevant to um what we're doing now is your time with LVMH and also your global background. Before we jump into what you

[16:38] were doing, just having a global perspective, having a global background, getting global experience was something that was important to you. Why was it so important? You moved to London from Paris. You then moved to Hong Kong. You did so much global traveling. Why was it important for you to get a global perspective on the work that you >> I think I'm actually passionate about what's going on in the world and I'm very curious and I and I'm very uh and geopolitical geopolitics has been something that is was in back of my mind for a very very long time. So I'm

[17:09] actually I I found it fascinating to see how the different market moves or different country moves uh how you negotiating projects in Japan or in the US or in in in France for that matters is very very different. So the the the fact that you need to always adjust yourself to to to the audience to make sure that you can get your point across but sometimes in a very different way. I think I found it to be intellectually

[17:40] very very challenging and very rewarding. So I think that's that's just been very very curious and passionate about that for for me. Again back to my earlier point about people uh it's a people business and learning to deal with those different nationalities during uh during my 26 years and I'm still learning. I mean you you're still learning. You still have to adapt. I'm I'm learning every day how to to to work in a US or organization. I work every day to to to on many. So so I think it's

[18:12] but this is very important because I I do think the world now despite what's going on right now countries tend to focus on themsel again. I mean that's probably a short short situation. And the reality is that when you're in investors and when you try to build effectively if you try to do project that we're doing being able to compare what's going elsewhere is actually also very very valuable. So I do think being able to be in the mix exposed I think make use very different and and actually

[18:44] help you to create product that are in in certain markets very very differentiated and therefore s with a higher chance of being successful. >> Speaking of being American, I can't let a fast ball go down the middle without asking you about I know how much you travel. I know how much John travels and obviously there's not one answer to this but to your point about learning about different cultures and different people and particularly given the current political environment this is a very large question there could be a lot of different ways you go but how have things evolved in terms of your

[19:16] experience of dealing with and learning about international cultures clearly every culture is different countries are different people have different backgrounds and experiences how has your frame if anything has changed over the past 27 years in terms of how you think about and learn about new cultures and new environments particularly given the current political lens. >> It's a tough question actually but I would say probably frankly I do think that it's probably it's probably slightly easier today than it was 27 years ago when I started

[19:46] because I would say very local players and partners are slightly more used to dealing with international investors. there's been a bit I mean despite I would say the last a few years I think the globalization has helped tremendously to to not bridge gaps but but effectively allowing more interaction of crossber situation between between countries so I do think is improving but I think when you make a difference you still need to be able to

[20:18] understand the local culture you still need to to pay your dues in a way of spending a lot of time and energy to to learn and that's that's won't change but I would say people are probably a little bit more receptive than they were back 27 years ago when I I started I mean for example when I was doing deal in France 27 years ago I mean we were I mean everything was in French they they had even difficulty I was working for for my lunch and and most of you know document

[20:50] had to be in English and so it was a bit of a an interesting situation But now, I mean, you know, the language is not as a big barrier as it is today. So, it it was before. So, that's that's probably the one of the big changes. >> I do want to get back to the LPMH experience, but again, are there consistent themes that you see when you're on the ground, right? What do you really get when you're on the ground in all these different locations that you can't get either? Obviously, now there's AI, but even before that, right? You could Google places, you could go to,

[21:21] you could get some information, you could read articles, but what do you get from the handhand combat? And not even that, I don't mean that like pjoratively, but in a with a negative kind of context, but you're on the ground, you're seeing people, you're talking to people, you're consistently getting from your perspective, insights that people aren't getting by not being there. So given that real estate is such a people-to-people business, are there consistent themes you learn about when you're on the ground? I think you can go deeper in certain subjects. You can read better the room as well. So, especially if you if you're

[21:53] in negotiation, I think we part of our our job as well is to to identify a few a few new concept IPs and and being able to experience them firsthand is also an interesting thing. So for example, if you if you're able to interact with a very cool restaurant concept in Japan, I mean may maybe you you will think okay, one of our project in the US, I think it will, you know, this this concept will will work very well. So why don't we try

[22:25] to bring that there? So that's also one of the concrete opportunity when you you're on the ground. So meeting people, seeing new new things is is obviously a very very very important thing because that's something you while it's it's great the zooms and the I mean the this technology is super helpful. So actually you can rationalize your your travel plans better and and but you still need to be on the ground and you still need to spend time with with with with the people. I've done much less travel than

[22:56] you have in this role, but even just my experience of being on the ground, seeing the sites, seeing what they look like, talking to people, seeing what their perspectives are, getting local perspective of local markets. Obviously, given my role, I am biased towards the use of data and AI, but there's just information that you're getting. Exactly what you're talking about, unique concepts, unique ideas. Obviously, we talk a lot about PPP or public private partnerships and understanding the political and community elements. There's work you can do and you should do research ahead of time, but being on

[23:26] the ground is really helpful. And it's there's some irony here and that I'm talking about the people side and you're talking about the zoo of technology side because that's usually the inverse of our internal conversation. But I just want to emphasize I do think that's really valuable and really valuable context and you've done it for so long that it's really impressive how far and how deep you've been able to go in these local markets particularly in Asia which transitions to LVMH. So you mentioned you spent a lot of time in Asia uh in your LVMH experience particularly being based out of Hong Kong coming in 2008. What was the scene? What were you

[23:57] looking at? What are some of the opportunities Asia or otherwise that you guys were thinking about in terms of growing the real estate portfolio? >> Yeah. So so when I joined the team, so they had already some exposure in in China and Japan. So one of the the the immediate focus for me was to to help the team on the ground to uh to push those those those project forward and relieve through our partnerships and and and and creating those developments. So that was just to remind it's very large

[24:29] mixeduse project with a with a a luxury retail element but it was not only about luxury retail it was not only about LVMH as I say earlier but you know trying to to to effectively realize those products. So it was it was trying to be making sure that you know giving a hand to the local uh team to be able to to effectively do those project and help them identify uh more whether in Asia or actually elsewhere in the world. So that was really the the intention. We it

[25:01] started under the family office/LVMH morph into a more fund management business with third party capital under management and eventually under within the Alcatan world which was but the the journey was really about the consumer and making sure that the product that we were building was right for the demand. And back then I would say Asia and China in particular was was was a booming market especially for luxury brands uh where their audience was very strong but the the the opportunity from a real

[25:33] estate point of view was very scarce. So the idea was effectively to bring the right product for the retailers to be able to express themsel and therefore give to their customers the experience that they deserve and therefore the ability to sell the product that they wanted to sell. So we were effectively solving a need which is always better when you you you do real estate investments. It's it's making sure that what what you create or what you you own is effectively solving a need whether it's from a a retail point of view or

[26:05] from an entertainment or experience point of view in our case. >> Two questions here. One is how did you decide what the right product was for the environment and how did that potential definition change particularly from a retail perspective as retail changed in terms of retail could be in person online delivery there's other retail coming in maybe that didn't change but did that was there an evolution of the product market fit given the changes in the retail experience >> for sure and and the retail is still changing every day I think the and you

[26:36] see that actually I mean the the shops I And the luxury boutiques that you see now versus the ones that you you used to in department store back 20 years ago are vastly different now. You got it's almost like cathedrals and these are enormous places where people not only shop but they they enjoy a meal or they have a coffee. So it's it's all this experience and driven that has changed dramatically. So therefore the need from a real estate point of view have have evolved dramatically. So the ability to

[27:07] be close to the operators, close to be to to the user of those real estate is is very important. So so you create the right product for them to be able to to to give the full experience to their customers. So we were to to answer your question, it was the input. It's all about inputting the right information from the different sources. So it's all about having the right network. It's all about having the right connection. It's all bad in the case of when you work close to a group like LVMH you you have

[27:39] the huge advantage of talking directly to the brand managers to the CEOs and they they can tell you you know directionally where they want to go what are the important market what are the what is they are missing so before you start a product you you have a fair idea on on what to do and a bit similar to in our case where we we we look at project we have the ability to pull on some of our relationship to be able to make sure we we we build the right products. >> I'm sure the answer is yes. But were

[28:09] there surprises or idiosyncratics to the Pacific markets? Obviously, Asia is a big geography on its own, but were there surprises that you found from these conversations or things that you were different based on the conversations, the networks and relationship that you were not anticipating or expecting? >> I think you surprise every day. But if if you're not then you're lucky. But uh no, I would say a few things. I will say I will probably have not expected the speed of change for example in in

[28:40] mainland China. I think that's that was fascinating to to experience firsthand from the initial real estate to what they're building right now. I mean the the evolution of the quality of the of the product they they're making I mean and also the customers are they evolve and and the the expectation that had changed so dramatically has been has been at a light speed and in the meantime markets have been very protective in in in in some of the experience. So no, I think I think that

[29:12] was probably one of my biggest uh not surprised but uh what very lucky to to to to to see that experience and and it's still you know changing so fast. I mean the the adoption I mean now in in the UK you pay mostly with your phone now but that was you know 8 to 10 years ago it was already the case you know it was already the case 8 to 10 years ago in mainland China it was very difficult to pay with real real money I mean there was it was all digital but you know when

[29:46] you when I moved back in London six six years ago you you were a bit surprised but now it's it's it sounds like obvious everybody is doing that but it was the adoption rate was was slightly slower than I would say for example in China where they all born now with a with a phone in their hand you mentioned surge and some of the work and I want to transition to that soon but you mentioned about your thesis about thematic investing clearly there was thematic investing at LBMH so from your perspective what did you learn about are

[30:16] the advantages of thematic investing having a perspective and having a point of view about real estate development through a specific theme and and how has that shaped your career going forward? >> So I mean it's it it it's evolved over time to be to be very frank. So I was very generalistic man for for for a long period of of time. I just you know it's it's it's it's also like driven the market demand and and and need. So it just just the reality right now in order

[30:46] for you to be successful in real estate. I mean considering the the overall market environment and somewhat in in certain cases a bit of challenging environment you need to be able to to create value and and and in order to create value it's no longer only about you know building the right product but somewhat ensuring that the tenants that in it's it's more like a partnership with the the people occupying your your real estate. So how you can leverage that partnership or you can fully take

[31:18] advantage jointly about creating this the the the the right universe for people to be successful. And therefore for me being fe thematic is you really need to be able to identify those those place where you can have you know both you you benefit from a strong tailwind but you're able to to harvest those those those value creation opportunity through both you know the real estate and the operations. So that's that's what I mean by by being thematic. I mean

[31:49] a lot of people these days in real estate they talk about data centers. This is obviously a an obvious place where a lot of people are piling money into but but again you have to look at the TAM you have to look at the number of product you have to look at the the challenges the access to power which sounds obvious but it's not that obvious uh when you you you look at those product so I I I think the key is at the end of the day is is being able to be relatively focused in the type of

[32:20] product and being able to deliver the product within a a strong time and strong environment and and that's what attracted me at at Search. So that's that's why I'm here. >> Yeah, you just brought it up. So what are those tailwinds that you're seeing from a search perspective? You obviously mentioned it was it 100% on your radar about sports and sports and entertainment anchor real estate which is what search stands for sport and entertainment real estate global holdings. So what were those tailwinds? What were those things you were attracted to from the opportunity as you

[32:50] were looking to join search? Well, first of all, I had to learn all the NBA, MLS, all this this teams on CES. I'm still learning here because some lost. But no, I think it was it was really about the the conversation I had with John the first time and and his when he explained his vision and is it was very about you know people are and it has accelerated over the last 12 months for sure with uh with AI getting

[33:22] more and more power and and being front and center everybody but I would say this more and more people want experience wants to leave thing that and being to be, you know, creating the right product to offer your your your your clients, your your customers, your tenants the ability to experience, enjoy, leave the the the full extent. I mean, this this that's what was exciting me because everybody was embarking into the hospitalization. So what I mean by

[33:52] that is that now you you are in an office space. You feel like you're in a living room because you want people to feel comfortable that you want your your your your your worker your team mates to to feel good at at work. But here is step even further is you you want to to give emotion. you want to bring people under one one roof or one district in order for people to experience things different physic I mean to really leave and and and and effectively being almost

[34:23] the edge of of the AI world that we are all embarking in and and I thought Jesus is perfect because you're not playing against AI you're embracing AI but you you're giving you you you you work in parallel and you you're not necessarily in the in the place where all the hype is and therefore probably the the some somewhat the the very strong valuation. So one can argue about the valuation here, but you you play in that field and you you create the right product and you benefit from that tailwind. So I thought the being able to play there and and and

[34:55] being in a global global scale because that was John's ambition is to to to my earlier point being able to to to act global to take advantage of that global position to create those kind of unique unique product was was also very exciting and and I think the the entrepreneurial the the agility and the and the desire to really and the fact that it was a very early stage. I mean this is still an early asset class. I mean it's almost like an asset class on its own. I mean you start to see even

[35:26] brokers are talking about those as a as a product and I think more and more people will will talk about that as a as a new asset class and and I think being niche and being being differentiated is again uh quite quite unique and and and offer greater chance of success. Yeah, I think operating at the intersection of both live experience, like you're saying, live experience, what's going to happen with AI, that was something that was attractive to me, too, when Serge was considering buying ROAR is the opportunity to take advantage of AI with

[35:57] the combination of live and physical assets and real assets were something that I found to be very attractive, very interesting, and John's, he had a vision for that as well, which I thought was very interesting, and he was very early adopter in terms of that intersection. But going back to what you mentioned, where we're operating as a new asset class. From your perspective, what are you doing and thinking about from a day-to-day perspective? You mentioned talking to brokers. Obviously, that's part of it, but what are you thinking about? What are you working on? Uh what's coming across on a on a

[36:27] day-to-day basis? >> Vast question again. Um I think I mean again it depends a bit where you are in the world and the the regions. I would say the the great situation is is where you can have all the stake you can talk with all the stakeholders and somewhat create the right product that answer the needs from from all the stakeholders. And when I talk about stakeholders, I mean the team owners, I mean the the city, I mean and and being able to effectively work with with them and and

[36:59] help to to to create the the right real estate environment around some of their destination is something that it's actually really one of our our key objective and and and and part of my time. So part of the, you know, being able to to to really focus on that and and and and create with the team the the right product and and align the the different vision and objectives in order to to create the right environment for success is is extremely important

[37:31] because somewhat people have different objective from have a different timeline and and and and being able to to to have everybody working in the same the same direction is is where you you're the successful but I would say in the in in the in the US and Canada, North America which is probably one of our biggest market by by by by far like probably 40 to 50% eventually you know one of the big big topic is around revitalization of of downtown cities taking advantage

[38:03] of the energy that like a stadium for example can bring to revive a location and building around that through, you know, our understanding of the fan through, thanks to you, by the way, you know, with with the ROAR initiatives and the ability to understand better your the fans and and making sure that we we give the right experience in and around the stadium, create the right district and and and and effectively bring back, you know, the energy that that some of

[38:34] the downtown location had before and had lost, especially since since COVID. I think that's that's one of the you know great great project and great opportunities and and some of the great project we're working on right now revolve around that. So working with with cities to to to to to get the right support working with teams to make sure that we can work with them to make sure that they we give them the maximum you know advantage for the fan to to experience more than just going and and

[39:05] see a show. I think this this is something that is is very taking a lot of our time and my time but but it's not only about the US. We we're looking at different markets. So it's Yeah. >> Yeah. I think the idea of that thesis about revitalizing downtown is something we're seeing globally. There's a different definition of downtown, different definition of what that territory or area looks like. But the idea of maximizing people's time, John obviously talks about people potentially having more disposable time with the rise of AI and looking for live event,

[39:36] entertainment, real estate, live, work, shop, play. Those are all things that you talk about, but those are a lot of different concepts, right? And there's a lot of different stakeholders and you're talking about bringing stakeholders together and people with various different levels of experience from real estate development, finance, operations, and that's a big part of what you do and obviously what I'm doing as well. But you mentioned this being a niche, relatively niche asset class, a new asset class, an emerging asset class. How do you talk to different stakeholders whether they're investors, city government officials or not just in city but government officials, community

[40:07] members? How are you thinking about communicating what we're doing and the impact we can have to all these different stakeholders? >> I mean I find it fascinating the the speed of change uh especially in the US. I mean um so I what is interesting is I do think that more and more of those stakeholders are are quite keen to to to move into that space understanding the benefit of that space but don't know necessarily how to tackle that and doesn't have all the ingredients

[40:37] whether just because they don't have the necessarily the capability in house or whether they have the experience and so I do think that there the the the there is definitely more of those stakeholders are keen to embark in a journey and and somewhat there is not that many still that can really being able to speak those different languages and bridge the gap between you know the sports the the the real estate and the financing the structuring and and that makes us unique

[41:08] and if you add on top of that the fact that we don't necessarily focus on on a certain market which certain local developer can do I mean they are excellent about very specific niche market but Why we're slightly different is we we we do that with on different continents. So being able to bring that knowledge as well from elsewhere to to pepper it with with with the district makes us even more unique and and makes our or our positioning more more strategic to those those stakeholders.

[41:39] But I do think that the the the it's it's you you less have to you don't have to convince them as well is more now they need more to be guided and I don't mean that in a in a in a wrong way. I think it's just more they need the the the right amount of support which is normal because they can't do they can't do everything. I mean the team cannot it's already quite complex to to run a team and and if you see the value of teams these days I mean that acres is an interesting record breaking and in less

[42:11] than a year I mean you I mean it's it's a big element but I do think that because of those value very high value for for the teams I think there's needs to find other sources of revenues and future revenue stream and I think real estate is becoming more and more strategic uh opportunities So I think everybody realize that and the the the city realize also the impact the potential positive impact on their downtown if if it's well well well organized and and and the potential support that they can bring through

[42:42] public private partnership could be very very beneficial. So, but they have to really being able to be well thought through so or or guide through so to make sure that that you know they they achieving what they want to achieve and we all can collectively we be be successful here. Two final questions as we're wrapping up before I ask the two final questions. You know I think you're exactly right particularly if you're talking about the business of sports and you're talking about the operators of sports. Real estate is not necessarily a a core operating skill of senior

[43:13] decision makers at teams, leagues, events, franchises, rights holders. You just need knowledge, right? You need to learn. It's not necessarily exactly what you're saying. You need some guidance and from people with expertise. And I think our ability to bridge all the things that you said, sports, real estate development, finance, operations, data, technology, that really does put us in a unique competitive advantage. Again wanted to emphasize that clearly this is Aurora Surge podcast and we're not trying to make an advertisement for Surge but I do think it is very important to stress that just being able

[43:43] to talk to people who know what they're doing across all different phases is really helpful and then >> yeah an alignment of interest and and also alignment of interest. having people that think long term about what they're trying to achieve which again I don't want to focus on I mean a little bit biased obviously Adam so you have to excuse me about selling a little bit search but but my joke aside I think my point is more to say at the end of the day is also about alignment of interest so the ability to be long-term the ability to the the focus to be long-term

[44:15] to be strategic for for for those stakeholders and could be also developers by the in in our market, our jurisdiction, we work very closely with developers because we they are amazingly strong local developers but they they see the benefit of us bringing this especially in Asia for example we bring this ability to play in in the sports as well is is is quite unique. So >> yeah and so sorry no I think we might streamline it into one final question then again you're the global chief investment officer we get people coming

[44:46] to us about potential investment uh particularly around real estate. So you mentioned some of the things, but what are from your perspective, what makes for a good investment at a high level, right? Obviously, we're not going to say like here's the underwriting model, but like from your perspective, what makes for an interesting investment that you wouldn't want to commit and potentially have Serge commit more time to understand and explore? >> Yeah. Well, I think I so I will put the the discipline of of being a chief investment officer and therefore I mean I I have a fidicure duty to ensure that

[45:17] the returns meet or or return criteria which is obviously unfortunately at the end of the day is one of the biggest funnel but frankly I think it's the long-term nature of what we built. I I do think that if we can create a product that eventually 20 years or 30 years from now will still be thriving and and and and being becoming a a place where people enjoy living, working, playing, eating and and and enjoying games and and other

[45:50] entertainment venues. I think that will be will be quite quite quite amazing. So I think the ability to see you know to participate either to revive a sit a location that has been no longer successful and to repositioning to be very successful. But I would say yeah to to from a a community impact point of view being able to have a positive community impact beyond beyond the returns. At the end of the day I think real estate has to have those two lenses. When you do real estate your impact is enormous. So being able to com

[46:21] to combine the financial returns with with a with an impact return on the community is is extremely important and and having this sport and entertainment angle to it is you you you're already a step there. I think it's just how you make sure that you you fully harness that is is is important. >> Yeah, I think that's a great place to end. Alex, thank you for your time. Thank you for explaining more about your background and your time in the real estate industry and what we're doing at Serge. appreciate the time. It was great to have you on as a guest. And you

[46:52] mentioned this is your first podcast. Hopefully there's many more to come after this episode. You did an excellent job. [music] >> Well, I'll tell my kids that I've done a podcast. They will be very impressed. Actually, dad, you you're young again. There we go. >> Exactly. That's what we're here for.