The ROAR Podcast: George Barrios, Isos Capital

# ROAR Podcast: George Barrios
**Guest:** George Barrios
**Date:** 2026-06-04
**YouTube URL:** [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Xl46Iac4yM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Xl46Iac4yM)
**Source:** YouTube auto-generated captions (no speaker diarization)

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(0:02) He took a company worth less than a [music] billion dollars and helped turn it into a global content machine valued for more than 9 billion. He cannibalized one of the most profitable businesses in pay-per-view to launch a streaming service that nearly everyone told him was a terrible idea and then watched it climb past 2 million subscribers. He got fired in January of 2020 in a moment that wiped billions off a public company's market cap overnight. and then he came back to architect one of the biggest mergers in the history of sports entertainment.

(0:33) This is George Barios. Over more than two decades, George built a career across Time Warner, HBO, and the New York Times company before stepping into the role that most people know him for, chief financial strategy officer, and eventually co-president of WWE. Along with his longtime partner Michelle Wilson, he helped write a playbook that didn't just change wrestling, it reframed how the entire sports industry thinks about intellectual property content in the battle for the fans time. Today, the two of them run ISO Capital and sit at the center of the global sports group, the largest sports investment holding company in the world.

(1:11) In this conversation, Adam sits down for George for all of it. The WAB network gamble, the data infrastructure most organizations only pretend to build, the partnership that survived what George calls the swamp, and his new book, Sometimes Rome, but never in doubt. They get to where that title actually came from. What really separates confidence from arrogance and why George believes artificial intelligence isn't the next internet is something much bigger. I'm Bryce Clinton. [music] This is the Roar Podcast. Welcome to the Roar Podcast. I'm your host, Adam Gman. With me today is George Barios. George, welcome to the podcast.

(1:50) >> Thanks, Adam. It's great to be here. >> Well, it's great to have you. I mean, you've had a very long and successful career and still are obviously a young guy. >> I like the successful part. The long part isn't I don't I don't like to admit that. Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, we're excited to talk about multiple different things. Also, one of the things we'll cover and primarily focus on is you have a new book coming out, which you're very excited to talk about. But we like to start the podcast the way we always like to, which is we want to learn more about you, your not so long, I guess, career, but a very [clears throat] successful career to date and we'll start from there and then we'll we'll dive into the book in particular.

(2:22) >> Thanks. Yeah, the book covers all of it. And and look, I have to admit it is a long career now. You know, I went from being being so proud of being the youngest guy in the room and now I'm the oldest guy. Actually, I don't even want to be in the room anymore, but I'm now I usually am the oldest guy in the room. Yeah. I started uh you know the first let's say 20 years or so as a a kind of general management financial management strategic management roles you know at different levels and lucky for me moving up over the years in different industries so started out at Time Warner and HBO a lot of cool things there and did a stint at PRA there which I always said was like a kind of business boot camp I probably learned more about the science of management and and leadership and business there than anywhere else really. had an interesting time at a New York Times company, but then you know what most people know me for is the time at we so uh started as a chief financial and strategy officer kind of back to the you know I mentioned finance management strategy management general management and then became uh co-president after a few years along with Michelle Wilson and and we ran the company and obviously it's uh I'm proud of you know my contributions all along the way but certainly incredibly proud of what we did at WWE. I mean when we started the business was worth less than a billion and you know when we rejoined the board to architect the the merger with UFC uh it was valued at over 9 billion. So being part of that creating the playbook that transformed that business is is amazing. And then Michelle and I and we continue to work together. So it's been now an 18-year partnership. We started our own firm Isos Capital uh in 2020 to advise in in sports and media and entertainment and invest. So, we've been doing that and for the last two years, we've been working with CBC and their sports assets and we just uh closed the formation of the largest sports investment holding company that exists, which is Global Sport Group. And so, Michelle and I are uh board members and investors in Global Sport Group. So, yeah, a lot of it's been a lot of fun.

(4:24) Primarily an operator the last few years, investor advisor, but uh I can't ever lose the operating part of it is I I love to to to grow businesses. So >> yeah, there's a lot there. And one of the things I do actually think is interesting and actually we'll definitely get back to it is the relationship you have with Michelle. Having two really high-powered successful executives have this long of a relationship and the successful is something we want to to explore in more detail because that's very rare honestly and I want to get the table first and give people the context. You mentioned that most people know you from your WWE experience. Obviously that's a big focus of the book and what you did with the book. So why don't we drill into that?

(5:02) And I do love the title of the book and how you framed it. So I'll let you say because I feel it I don't know awkward is the wrong word, but I think it definitely applies to you. >> Yes. You know, look, it's the first book I've written and I and about halfway through I'm like I'm never [ __ ] doing this again. >> I I haven't really >> I tell it's it's a labor of love and hate, you know, like >> no question. >> You're so proud as you're doing things and then you you know when you're stuck or you're in the 10th round of editing. But in any event, as you know, you know, you give a lot of thought to what could the title be and there, you know, there was a few, but the one that we went with I went with was sometimes wrong but never in doubt. And you know, people who know me would go, "Oh yeah, arrogant so that sounds just like it." Uh, but that really wasn't where the where it came from. It actually was a phrase in a performance review early in my career.

(5:52) Uh, and it was a great review and, you know, and I ended up getting promoted. I didn't know what that my boss had given me the review the night before to read. So I was like, "Yeah, so you're prepared." It was a great idea by the way. I I to stole that from him. I I've done that throughout my career after that. But anyway, I read it. It's great review and read, but the thing to suck out is he's you put rights in there and George is sometimes wrong, but never in doubt. And I can't remember the context, but I remember feeling like, holy [ __ ] you know, that that doesn't sound good.

(6:20) And then he told me, you know, as we do the review and it's great and you know, hey, we're gonna I was at that point I got promoted to run the first time I run ran an entire business. I was about 30 years old for them. And he gives me and I said, but hey, why did you write why did you write that? Like that doesn't it doesn't sound good. Are you telling me that I got to tone that down? He said, "No, not at all." He goes he goes he goes, "We love the edge, George. So we keep that." He goes, "Yeah, you kind of sand it down a little bit, but we love the edge." He he said to me and again stuck with me. He said uh he had gotten the phrase from a book he had read and it was written by a Harvard surgeon and the surgeon had written in there. He said that all great surgeons were sometimes wrong but never in doubt. And the reason is because surgery is incredibly hard and if you're going to be great at it, you have to have the confidence that you're going to succeed because if you don't, there is no chance of success. However, and this is what what my boss said to me. He goes, "The confidence doesn't come from bravado. It comes from doing the the work, the preparation." And so he said to me, he goes, "Look, we know why you're confident." He goes, "Cuz you've done so much work that you know that the idea is going to work, and then you get in there and drive it home, and you don't let the the many failures, failures with a small F, stop you because you've done the work to validate it." So that's where the the title of the book came from. And I would say probably, you know, if you for me anyway, you know, we're all different.

(7:48) We all pull on different strengths, but for me that that's been a big one is I will intensely dive into something to really understand it to see if there's the opportunity to do something big and then if there is dive in again to do the plan of what that thing is going to be, what's the north star and what's the blueprint to get you there and then go in and you know put blinders on and let the critics chirp away on the sidelines while you do it. It's it actually you know I know we said we get to Michelle it's one of the things her and I share different personalities different but that element of the preparation and the digging in is actually one of the real bonding agents and why the partnership uh has worked but WWE yeah it was look it was an amazing run like I said when we started company's worth less than a billion while we were there at uh max had around seven or so and then we rejoined the board led the process to architect the the merger with UFC and that valied WWE at over 9 billion and and it was all this, you know, creation of a playbook that was new to sports and that we, you know, brought to the table and and today it's it's why, you know, CBC wanted to work with us and form GSG together is because, you know, they valley the playbook, too, because they saw what it did at WWE and it really is a focus on, you know, content, the data that subtends that, how to create stars of your athletes, how to take a brand outside of your home market. It really is flipping the prism of how do you think of sports is not about just what's on the field but about a core element of intellectual property and building the business around that and everybody says they're doing that and they are to some degree I would say what we did at at WWE was was pretty deep and it and it's that playbook that we take when I say playbook it's not PowerPoint slides it's about 400 pages of text of what we did how we created it kind of the things you've got to deal with as as the person building it like the the tens ions and so on and so but yeah it was it was a great run >> well we want to see that book as well once this book comes out >> that would be the second book I actually have started outlining that book >> yeah exactly >> so yeah >> we do want to dive in the playbook one thing I do want to before we dive into that the the point about confidence versus arrogance and I think the idea of having confidence I think people can conflate that but really it is important to have confidence right you have to really believe in what you're doing and really have conviction and that goes into exactly what you were talking about with the WW launching the WWE network which obviously was foundational to what you're talking about in terms of the transformation of the WWE. One, can you talk about the WWE Network and two, how did that come to fruition? How did you start thinking about that as a path forward?

(10:21) >> Yeah, it's a great question. I would say, you know, WWE network in a lot of ways was a tactic. The the strategy really came out around of this notion of intellectual property. The belief that, you know, at that point, we hadn't started with AI generated content, but certainly with userenerated content. So our belief was there's going to be a massive fragmentation of content cuz there will be a glut of it which is what transpired. You're going to fragment people's time. So you have to win the battle for time. We became maniacal. I know you're a you're a data guy. We became maniacal about measuring time.

(10:54) And even to this day people telling me they're doing it. I walk into the office ask the person running. I go well how many hours of content are you creating today? >> You crickets. What's the total time consumed across all platform crickets? So even to this day you it's still not we were doing it you know now almost 15 years ago that was a strategy WWE Network was an ESPOD service right so for us we said look we we're creating 300 hours of inring match content that's what we do at WWE that's great what we're going to end up doing over a long you know it's going to take us 5 to 10 years we're going to create another two to 3,000 hours around that and it'll be on social digital portrait horizontal or you It was that level of detail, content line by content line. Where is it?

(11:43) What's it going? What's the audience for it? So on and so forth. The SBOD WWE Network, we said, "Hey, this is for our most passionate fans." So this is not for every fan of wrestling. It's for our most passionate wrestling fans, and we're going to put content out there. We're going to take an existing distribution method, which was pay-per-view, where your people are paying $50 or $60 a month to access, you know, the prime event of the month, right? our playoffs, if you will, WWE'se's playoff, and we're going to get away with that. We're going to make it for the so the fans only have to pay $10 a month, and we're going to do it there.

(12:16) Now, big change, right? I mean, and we cannibalized an incredibly profitable business. Every I remember it was one of the satellite guys, Direct TV or Dish, issued a press release saying what a dumb idea was. Now, so think about this huge company, and here we are, the little wrestling people, you know, at Stanford. there's this huge company thrown I I remember telling Michelle I go you know first they ignore you you know then they laugh at you right and and and then you win and I'm like here we go right so they've been ignoring us >> I guess now they're yeah now they're throwing darts at us I go we're on the right track but yeah we did it >> got a lot of criticism for it you know investors didn't like it because they saw the cannibalization of the existing business but they didn't like it until it worked you know and you know a year later we had a million subscribers it was profitable and at its peak it was over 2 million subscribers you know 200 million plus in revenue about $80 million in profit so huge transformation but again people remember that and they remember how what a big deal it was and it was I'm not taking away it was a big deal but it really was a tactic the real strategy was the creation of a content factory and we're now going to go into multiple places so uh but yeah it was a lot of fun >> but it's a fundamental change in the business model and obviously you had a lot of well doumented clashes I put them mildly with Vince McMahon. So one what was the process like at the beginning when you first hired you when you were first looking at it and then two obviously wrestling was and still is a live events business or that's a big component of the business and this is clearly a shift in content. So how do those conversations go to get to the position where you could even launch the >> Yeah, it's a great question. It gets back to the sometimes wrong but never in doubt. But I'll tell the story and I'll say the one thing you know you mentioned Vince there is an element of the book but he and I were worked together for well 12 years when I was there running the company then year and change when I rejoined the board. So that's a long time I would say during all that time we had one disagreement towards the end and there was probably one one time that I say yeah you know I that I said something you know that that wasn't particularly nice right only one time.

(14:23) So we had from my perspective a great relationship. I I think you would say the same. We were never buddies. Uh you know there wasn't a lot of chitchat when we you know and the million meetings we had it what we I always say it was you know it's like high performing teammates or you know I've never been in in the military but I've got a lot of friends who said they said yeah that you know look you don't like everybody around you but the people you trust and respect those are the people you want to have when you're going into in in that case into battle. And I would say sports team is the same way and that's the relationship we had. But back to to the question. Yeah. Look, I join. Yeah, I still remember it. Again, tell a story in the book. I get a call from I think it was Spencer Stewart, a guy I knew. I think it was Spencer Stewart he was with. I'm drawing a blank, but he calls me. He's like, "Hey, you know, I got something. I think it's great C CFO.

(15:11) It's a public company. It's a big deal. First time CFO job in a public company is a big deal. They're hard to get." And I was like, "Oh, that's interesting." He's like, "It's in Stanford." I'm like, "Oh, that well that's even better. It saves me the commute into the city, so that's awesome." I'm like, "So, so what is it?" And he and he goes, "We" and I go, "What's that?" And he goes, "You know, world wrestling, the wrestling." And I the exact phrase. I go, "Are you [ __ ] kidding me? You have called me for that?" I'm like, like, so any goes, well, yeah, his quick comeback was, "Hey, George, you're the guy that's always talking about you don't give a [ __ ] about people's opinions. you want to see the data and you'll make your own. I'm like, yeah. He goes, do you know anything about the business? I go, no. Uh, and he goes, so maybe you don't think you follow your own advice? And I call you later. Hung up, you know, did the work, looked around and said, hm, this is interesting. I'd be lying if I said how interesting I would learn it is.

(16:08) >> And I was like, this is interesting. Seems like it's a bigger, you know, there's more brand than there is value in the company. All right. So I didn't even get in. Look, hit it off. First couple first couple of years we're dealing with the financial crisis. So you're doing [ __ ] that is not a lot of fun, which is battening down the hatches, getting through that. But we come out of that and we start thinking, all right, well, what's the growth? So Michelle and I look literally spend 12, 18 months doing the work, the spade work, stuff that people are saying, hey, you're wasting your time. Even Vince was like, "Do we really need to do that?"

(16:42) We're doing kind of deep consumer research all over the world in, you know, US, Western Europe, relatively easy. It's intense, but relatively easy. Places like India, Southeast Asia, like we really want to understand where the brand is today. So, we're doing that work. In the same time, we're doing this work around where do we think the media industry is going? Where do we think economics are going to flow? You know, there's proliferation of content. What's that going to do? how you know what where do we sit in there? And then the big unlock which now seems like obvious but when everybody literally everyone disagreed with was sports isn't what's valuable.

(17:22) What's valuable is it's live. There's a lot of hours of it because seasons are long. It is tribal. The fan base is passionate. It's multigenerational. people pick it up as ch. So you start doing that and saying okay like first principles thinking it's not that it's a sport it's that it has those attributes and holy [ __ ] so does wrestling. Holy [ __ ] So our business model had been an infomercial. We give this content away for free and then we sell tickets, t-shirts and toys >> which is a great business. >> Yeah. >> But the unlock of And by the way we said that the media laughed at us. They said it's wrestling. What do you mean it's the same valley of sports? It's a it's it's not there. It's it's scripted and you know the ending is known that's not a sport and we're saying it doesn't matter. It's live with a passionate fan base. And we kept saying that and we kept saying that and then eventually you know the people we had to convince which were the intermediaries right the networks and the strip said yeah you're right god damn it you're right. And so obviously that means in their case they've got to pay different economics to us right for getting those. So they didn't want us to be right >> but once eventually when people just saw it but that was the unlock the network specifically right because you're saying that really hard I remember Vince pushing really he created the pay-per-view business right so telling the guy not just the intellectual element of why this is going to work but the emotional element of like hey we're killing the baby here with that. Yeah, it was hard. But you know, Vince ultimately and and I should say nothing like what you people think and see on TV, right? The difficulty of working with Vince wasn't that Vince, you know, I think people would assume he's loud, he's he's not. He's a stoic. The real difficulty is getting him to tell you what he's thinking, right? It's very hard. Uh I'm the opposite, right? I won't stop telling you what I think, right? I'm so totally different personalities in that way. But yeah, that work around the network was just a lot. It was a lot of leg work and spade work and thinking how does this fit within the entire you know our content factory model where does an ESBOT service fit and you know again he got comfortable because he saw the amount of work and thinking and how we were going to do it as well as how how we're going to build this out you know the the mundane element you know what exactly what a lot of investors call the blocking and tackling. I'm like, "Yeah, you obviously never played football cuz anybody who's ever played football never says blocking and tackling in kind of like a dismissive way, right? It's like it's the goddamn that is the game." So, in any >> right, so but he he had seen it. He got comfortable, but it was scary. Look, I mean, I you know, when we launch and the pay-per-view business goes to zero and now we're building up a subscriber base.

(20:15) Yeah, man. It it was it was it was I'd be lying. I'd say it was scared. It was it it was a swamp of you know I talk about the swamp of despair in the book you know the the the journey you have to go through emotionally when you're doing something big right because the problem is if it's big it ain't easy >> exactly >> and so this is not easy and if it's big there will be naysayers cuz it's not easy right to be big you're going against the status quo the status quo is never big so you got to find and it's hard and so we were in the swamp you know I remember Michelle you know I learned learned about the swamp during that time, you know, and trying to read stuff and say, "Hey, how how do you get through this?" And I saw that and I'm like, "Holy [ __ ] this is what it is."

(20:56) And the swamp is great idea. Holy holy [ __ ] You know, what did we do? And then you kind of claw your way out and then you come and then you get out and you're like, "All right, we should just stop. We got out of that mess." But if you keep going, you know, and if you were right and you keep going, all of a sudden you look back and go, "Man, this is the greatest thing I've ever done." And so, yeah, her and I were in the swamp. I mean, you talk about the relationship. I always say, well, I think one of the reasons I was able to get through the swamp was because she was there, right, with me, right, and having my back. And at times like that, you know, look, the reality is people run for the exits, you know, and they start going, "Oh, that was his idea, not mine." You know, and, you know, she never did that. I didn't do that to her.

(21:38) And and I think, frankly, that's what build the trust that allowed us to be, you know, for that partnership to work cuz it is hard. People ask me all the time, you brought it up, you know, how, you know, you recommend that, you know, the the co-CEO model. I'm like, hell no. It's really hard. If you would have asked me, do I want to be a coach? Hell no. I don't want to be a guy. I want to be CEO. I know what I want to do. I don't I don't want to have, you know, somebody that then I got to, you know, figure out how to make work. But for us, it's I think a, you know, people always assume because of our backgrounds, oh, you guys fill in each other's, you know, weak spots. Not really. I mean, and in some ways you might argue that we amplify our weaknesses. The reason it works is because we think the same way, you know, we approach the problem the same way. We have the same level of intensity and work ethic, you know, which is hard to find. I always say what what you want to do is find the ven diagram, the intersection of intellect, integrity, and energy, you know, the people who match you on those things.

(22:37) And we match on those things. You know, we're, you know, I'll have your integrity not mean that you're not going to cheat. integrity being I'm gonna have your back when [ __ ] gets tough. >> Exactly. >> Energy, the the willingness to push and never stop and then the intellect, the confidence like you can do this. And you know, I always said that's what worked. But yeah, it was it was I remember the vividly what it talked a lot about some of those meetings that led to that, you know, the dialogue and as I was re read as I was writing the book and remembering, you know, some of it you kind of laugh like cuz you you were, you know, you were sitting there kind of pointing fingers at each other, getting angry at each other, you know, I still remember Vince at one point, you know, big Vince McMahon, right? You know, he's whatever he's 6'2, whatever he is, he's a giant, you know, physically intimidating guy. And and every once in a while he'd go, "George, stop yelling at me." you know, he'd like because I get excited, my voice rises. So, yeah, know there's a lot of good stories, a lot of fun.

(23:29) >> Well, to dive into the relationship with Michelle, how it started, how it's going. But one of the interesting things about the book, like you talked about, there's the never endow, but the swamp of despair and the balance of those two things and how those all work together and probably work together to build a relationship with Michelle. So, let's dive into the relationship with Michelle. How did it get started? You mentioned the co-CEO model and how has it when you're in the battle you're in the this swamp of despair. How has that helped to build the relationship and how have you guys been able to navigate it for so >> yeah and look it happened we we kind of joined the company you know within a few months of each other >> didn't didn't know each other up until then and so you know you start typical you know between any colleagues and you know both of us were in the sea suite so we're you know we're part of the ma the senior management team so it's like hey you know and you're saying how do you think about the world why did you join you learn about each other's experience so we were doing that but the the real kind bonding element at the start was, you know, I told her the story is the same story I told you. But when the recruiter called me, now Michelle had worked for Vince earlier in her career with XFL, launched the XFL. So she had worked with him whatever it was 8, nine, 10 years prior to then rejoining. So she knew him and so we talked about that.

(24:42) But you know, I said to her and she goes, "Yeah, I agree. It's like it there there's this is a really good business, but when you look at it, you and you look at the the intensity of the fandom, you're like, it should be bigger. Why isn't it bigger? You know, and that and she goes, I agree. And so then it became this. And again, back to the similarity we share is like, all right, let's dig in. We talked about we need to have a better understanding of our, you know, not this [ __ ] yuggv data that, you know, is out there. We got to go really deep, really deep. and understand how our fans think about what we do, how we really need to understand because we don't, you know, the stuff we have is boilerplate to, you know, what everybody has, which is fine. It's okay, but if we're looking for nuggets, you know, golden nuggets, things that haven't been pulled out yet, we got to go a lot deeper. So, that was part of the work.

(25:37) And, you know, we also said we also got to have a point of view of how this industry is going to change, right? 2008, you're still kind of midway through, you know, what's happening in the media industry. The the, you know, the cataclysm hasn't happened yet, right? That but we, you know, we actually had we had [ __ ] in front of the board in 2010 111 that basically mimics all the stuff we talk about today with the mergers and the networks losing their, you know, their their power in essence. We had that all laid out, you know, and what we were then talking about. So, how do where do we fit in that? And you know during that it was like okay we're wrestling back to the the pivot wrestling all right that that's good but it was during that digging that I said like I said sounds basic now everybody disagreed it's like no man what's valuable here isn't sport it's live and we're that and that that is what we're how we're going to reposition this and you look and then you know I always tell there was not one action it was a million little things even as you know we we talked to the portfolio companies you know that were are invested in. Now, we talk about B2B PR. You know, one of the things we did early on, we said we're going to release a you know, people don't get who we are or they have actually it's worse. They know who we are and they have their own perception and we got to we got to pivot that >> and it was we our thing was a press release a day. Every time we tell people that they chuckle. I was like, "No, it was a press release a day." And this and it wasn't just I'm not we're not making [ __ ] up. We went to every executive in the company, right, on our teams, and said, "This is what we're going to do every week on Friday. You're going to put 10 things that you think in your area of the business are worth talking about." Now, the truth is, nobody's got 10 things every week, but you're going to give us 10, right? So, all of a sudden, you got, you know, a hundred ideas and that's the that's now goes into the top of the funnel to what we're doing next week, right? We're doing a press release a day. Was it always five a week or I mean seven a week? No, not always. But it was that type of cadence.

(27:39) And like most things with her and I, it's not just some random stuff. We built a machine, right? A machine data driven, right? Because we we were one of the early investors internally in data and analytics, including to support the PR effort of what how is each message getting out there and how is it doing? And then let's continue to amplify the things that work. So in any event, even it's something where people go, "Oh, press release." There is a that's part of the playbook. And it's not just to do what I just said, you got to build a system, a machine that makes that happen. So in any event, it it was that we bonded over that as a transition. You again, back to the swamp of despair. Her and I sit in front of the board in 2010, I think. 10. Yeah, 10 or 11. And we're like, here it is. Here's what we're going to do over the next 5 years. this is where where we think we can take the business and we're saying we think we can 10x the business and everybody's like well that's in crazy I don't think even Vince believed it you know and he was the always the cheerleader about WWE I don't think he even believed it we was like no we can do this and let me explain to you why you know we did a whole bunch of work to show how much live consumption what live hours we're getting in the market blah blah blah blah blah all this stuff how it impacts sponsorship have the idea for the SOD service laid out there so We put that, you know, out there. We were so excited, right? We're like, man, this is good work. And board agreed, right? We're going. Well, guess what? Now you're going and shit's not working exactly like it got [laughter] laid out. And now people are, you know, it was painful.

(29:13) And back to the relationship. She never lost fate. I certainly did because we had done the work and we could see the work working. It just wasn't manifesting into economics, right? Because you're on a renewal cycle with your partners that's three or five years long. So you got to wait. But you we could see it working. Investors, you're public, so everything is out there. They're chirping in saying they're not, you know, they're not happy anyway. Analysts are criticizing it until it all starts working. And that took about three or four years. So that journey we were in the swamp and some days really deep in the swamp, others just kind of, you know, heads above water getting through it. But ultimately that's what forged the the partnership, you know, that's where the the intellect was obvious, right? We could see that each other we we we could hang with each other and there was a steel sharp and steel element to it. The intensity and work ethic was obvious, right? We this is what we loved to do and we and we both loved it, right? It was a crap. We were passionate about what we did. But that integrity and I always said there's probably a better word I got to come up with because integrity sounds like well everybody has integrity. It's it's it's the trust really, you know, it's the thing that you know somebody's going to have your back when it's not easy. Every everybody will have your back when it's easy.

(30:29) >> When it's not easy, right? When their reputation is on the line, when their financial success is on the line, that people, you know, everybody changes when those two things. That's what people care about. Their reputation and their financial and their health. That's not in question here. that so that we could get through that and support each other, right? That builds a bond. So I always tell people don't I wouldn't ever recommend two people cos I wouldn't recommend it because you need kind of this unique you know context I think to make it work otherwise I think it's really hard.

(31:06) >> You mentioned this earlier that you had a good relationship with Vince and you mostly got along. you created a lot of success for the company over that time period, but it came in and around 2020. There was a decision point made about the particularly around the WWE Network and what Vince was potentially going to do in terms of relaunching the XFL and then you're kind of back in this fire, right? To see like what's going to happen going forward with your career. Can you talk about that that experience and >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, it ends up with me getting fired in January 2020, right? Yeah.

(31:34) >> I remember when I told Michelle about the book, she's like, "You're not writing that, are you?" I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I'm writing that. It's all in there, >> you know. Like I, you know, for better or worse, right? So, >> yeah, it's a it's Yeah. And that part that's what I told her. I go, "Well, Sh, they people know that. They didn't know the story, but they know that they knew that." Yeah. So, look, I mean, I remember I think it was an early 19. Her and I are in a in a in a car, you know, in some business trip. You know, I would say it was either it was out international, so it was either Dubai, Shanghai, or Mumbai. You know, it was one of the three. I can't remember which one.

(32:08) >> Yeah. But, you know, it's early 19. We've kind of killed it. You know, the the business has done great. The the stock has gone through the roof. You know, there's always things you're dealing with. But, I mean, we kind maybe it was late 18 or late 18, early 19. And she turns to me and she goes, she goes, "I know we knew it was going to work, but did you really ever think it was going to be this good?" And I go, I'm like, "Well, hold on. I've got that board m, you know, I've got our strategy that we laid out, right? 150 pages of this is what we're going to do. This is how it's going to get done.

(32:42) This is why we believe it. And I flipped to it. I, you know, the front page of that says we're going to do these 10 things, right? There's thousands of details going on, but there's 10 things and we're going to, you know, five to 10x the company. I go, and there are the things written out. And I showed it to her and she goes, "Yeah." She goes, "We did know." And I'm like, "Yep, we knew. We wrote it down." So, and she got she choked up. I choked up. So, we're in that, you know, that's where we were during that time. You know, her and I would talk and we're saying, "Hey, look, you know, this co stuff is great, but I want to go do my own thing. You know, I I want to lose the co." And she said, "Yeah, me too. You know, I want to go do my own thing, too." So, we were talking about it and then you're in the summer of 19 and I remember being in her office. I'm like, "Yeah, you know, I think I'm after the next uh earnings call or board meeting, I want to go tell Vince that, you know, I'm I'm ready to leave." and you know and I'll we'll figure out a plan. And she's like, "Holy shit." She goes, "I was going to tell him the same thing."

(33:42) And I was like, "Oh my god." And so then it's like, "Holy shit." I go, "Well, should we tell him separately? Should we tell him together? Oh my god. What are we going to do? He's going to lose his mind. Oh my god." You know, we're like in a panic now. Even though we kind of knew it was coming, but that it happened separately. So we said, "I think it's best if we go tell him together." So anyway, there we are. It's late July, early August of 19. We go in there and say, "Hey, look, we're going to go do our own thing." And just so happens she was thinking this, "All right, blah blah blah." You know, he he he, you know, and by the way, we got let's do a six-month plan. So, we'll tell, you know, we'll publicize it that we're leaving.

(34:19) There'll be a transition. Hey, maybe we even stay on the board to make it look very, you know, like we're here to help. So, there's no big thing. It's just company's in a great spot. Transition. He gets, you know, emotional, chokes up, you know, there's tears in his eyes. He's like, "We can't do this. This thing has been so good." Um, you know, we're in there for two hours. And he's like, "We got to make it work." You know, we're talking through a bunch of things. I, you know, and so we come out of that meeting. I still remember. She told me afterward, she goes, "I was right." She was, she goes, "We should just stick to what we were going to do.

(34:56) You know, it the time is right. Let's leave on." And I'm like, "No, Michelle, come on. There's still more to be done here." Which there was, and there's more great things to do, which there were. I go, "Let I we can figure out a way to to make it all work. We all get what we want." So anyway, that's what we tried to do. Spent a couple of months, you know, trying to figure that out. You know, that's when the PowerPoint comes out and you're like, "Well, maybe if we change this or change that." that that whole process caused everybody's heart to harden, you know, all of a sudden it went from this is awesome to, you know, you're trying to do that now. And so it it it really did.

(35:37) You know, I felt that way. I won't speak for Michelle. I think I can't speak for either one of, but I think everybody felt that way. And we started kind of interacting with each other differently. Not Michelle and I, but you know, me and Vince and and Michelle and Vince when the three of us got together, it was stilted. And then there was a period there uh you know Vince had said something to me and this the one time I responded kind of pretty you know you know not happily back and at that point I knew I'm like I'm out of here you know and so we got a earnings call you know we the first of the year you know early on in the year the following year I'm going to stay a couple more months and then but after that earnings call when we I'm I'm having that same conversation with them and this time there is no I'm coming. So anyway, those two months as we're waiting, things just get worse. I mean, it's it's just you could just feel it. And so we have a a board meeting early, you know, late January, which is, you know, it's a strategy for the next, you know, the operating plan for for the following year, the strategy, all that kind of stuff, but it's got a different vibe. I've got a different vibe. You know, I'm a, you know, I'm a pretty passionate guy and energetic and, you know, can be a little irreverent. All of that's gone, right? I'm just kind of basically going through the motions. So come out of that, you know, Vince says, "Hey, can you come into the office?" And in my office, I go in and he's like, "Yeah, this isn't working." He goes, "So we're ending it." And I go, "Well, yeah, you're you're right. It's not working.

(36:59) This is what I'm thinking. You know, we can announce something after the earnings call." And he's like, "No, no, today." And I said, "Today?" I'm like, I go, "That's not going to go over well." You know, I told him, I go, "Ben," he goes, "George," he goes and you know, it was it was cordial. He he just goes, "Look, when you" He goes, "You know how I feel." He goes, "When you know you got to do something, you just got to pull the band-aid." I go, "Yeah, Vince, but that it's just it's it's not going to be good internally. It's not going to be good externally. I'm I'm telling you, I don't think that's a good idea." He's like, "No, my mind's made up." And said, "All right, well, your mind's made up." It's been good knowing you. Uh, you know, thing got announced, you know, he had the same conversation with Michelle separately and then they announced it that night. Stock dropped like, I don't know, 30 40% overnight in one day when it gets out. I remember Jim Kramer the next day on CNBC's like I thought Barios was doing a great job or something like that you know but that was it. I I still remember you know Richard Davis you know at at that point I was yeah we had just brought on I was on the Makea-Wish board. It was before I became chairman of the board and we had just brought in Richard Davis as the CEO and Richard you know world famous CEO ran US bank you know one of the most famous financial CEOs in the world. So he's, you know, the fact, you know, the fact that at one point he was working for me because I was the chair of the board was a little bit of a joke, but but he's a great guy.

(38:19) I mean, you know, talk about a servant leader. He's that. But anyway, he calls me. He goes, "Hey, how are you doing?" You because he sees the release, too. I'm like, "H, you know," and I told him the story, a little truncated version I just told you. And he goes, "Hey." He goes, "Look, George, at the end of the day, though, if anybody ever asks you how much you're worth," he goes, "By my calculation, I figure it's $2.7 billion." You know, it's the amount of the drop in the stock price. >> Yeah. Right. Exactly. And I was like I'm like that's pretty cool right there.

(38:43) [laughter] >> Like that's pretty good. I like that. I'll be using that. So it was a nice call and I got a lot of those a lot of people who had kind of been along in the journey said hey you know and and it was tough because you have this great movie and I'm a big believer life's a movie. It's not a snapshot. you can't fixate on a single events but yeah this great movie had a you know ending but it was and you know we went on our way and you know then it allowed me and Michelle to actually decide you know what >> we don't want to do our own thing >> let's keep doing it together you know and that was a whole discussion which I go through in the book I almost actually took a different role you know doing what I want to do and my wife goes and we're in the middle of code my wife goes you know you can do that if you want you I'll, you know, she'll I'll support you.

(39:30) But you're talking about that thing a lot differently than when you're talking about maybe doing something with Michelle. There you get that fire in your eyes. The other thing sounds like you're kind of convincing yourself. So anyway, we just we decided to do it. And look at a few months later, and this gets to people thought there was a like animosity between us. We called Vince up, you know, the summer of 2020, so five or six months after after we left, and said, "Hey, you know, we'd love to go out to dinner and catch up." Now, Vince is not a I'm going to go have dinners and lunch kind of guy.

(40:01) >> Exactly. >> He is a I work 18 to 20 hours a day kind of guy, not the I go for lunch. And that's what he does. So, >> yeah, >> he immediately goes, I'd really like that. Just like that. And we were like, "Oh, that's awesome." And so, the three of us went to this place in Greenwich called Lascal. and you know kind of re reminisced obviously we're all in the middle of co there WWE's going through a tough time he you know he was really kind of goes if we wouldn't have done what you guys did we you know cert the sole so if you looked at we cir the sole back when Michelle and I joined same business so cir the sole once co hit went bankrupt immediately within weeks you know Vince you know Vince's a smart guy he goes if we wouldn't have done everything you guys did same would happen the reality is WWE had one of its even though they weren't doing events had one of its most profitable years in in because the business had gotten so big and also the content factory was fueling so much of the economics. So, in any event, it was great. And then look, I'd be lying if I didn't say when, you know, and I, you know, the prologue, which is available on on my website, you can see it. You know, it's a sneak peek on the book and you can read it. I'm I'm visiting my mom in in in in Miami. Uh I'm Cuban, so you know, I love getting down to Miami. I'm visiting my mom in Miami. Phone rings and it's him. It's Vince. This is now in 2023. And you know, he tells me he wants me to come back that he's thinking of doing something big.

(41:25) Not sure exactly what it is, but he goes, "I need BA team. Would you come back?" And I said, "Yeah, sure." Of course. You know, no hesitation. He goes, "You think Michelle would come back?" And and I'm like, "Well, I don't know, but I think she would." He goes, "Well, can you ask her?" And [laughter] I was like, "Yeah, sure." So, here's Vince McMahon a little nervous about making the call to Michelle. He goes, "Can can you ask her?" And I was like, "Yeah, but I I'd be lying if I didn't say rejoining the board, you know, cuz I told the story to my, you know, the colleagues and and business partners that I just told you, but people were like, "Yeah, that's [ __ ] He fired you." And that's nobody believed it what I just said. So when we rejoined the board, well, all of a sudden that was the the ending to the movie, you know? I mean, that now the now the movie, you know, you had to you got to rewrite the ending. Uh so this kind you I remember going back into the building for the first time people are hugging me you know ex colleagues Wrestlemania the following year you know and as we were actually closing the deal with UFC over that weekend but you know you see everybody there business partners are there you know it's like a triumphant return so you know it didn't plan it that way but I'd be lying if I didn't say it was it was a great koda >> well I was going to say it's a good ending the movie you brought it up and I do want to talk about that what was it like coming back the board negotiating the deal with UFC, getting the call from Vince. I mean, it's quite a return. I'm not sure we have the time in this episode to cover what you were doing in between those years and everything with ISO Capital, but which we'll happy to have you back on and talk all about all those things as well, but talk about the return, this triumphant return, this great >> So, I would love to be back on and talk.

(43:01) >> Yeah. And I'd love to come back on and and actually talk about what we're doing because we think it's really cool what we're doing, Global Sport Group. But yeah, Michelle and I had left, had hit a home run right out of the gate, took Bolero public immediately, >> had a venture. So, we were doing great. >> Yeah. >> Awesome. We're now working on our next thing, which ended up turning into what we're doing now in a kind of roundabout way. But that's what ended up happening. But we paused as we get I get the call. I'm I'm in my get the call. I call Michelle and she's like, "Are you kidding me?" And I'm like, "No." He goes and and she goes, "Well, what what did he say? He's he said look he's you know he's ready for the next thing. I had always said you know after we had reached our level of success and that 1819 we you know we had hit the ball park I said Vince the next next big thing is we either acquire somebody right and I not to get into the the meat of it but you know this the importance of scale I thought was going to be really important and very valuable or we you know merge with somebody or get a you know that was an idea. So I think as he is in his head is thinking hey look you know it's time for me to transition and you know he's thinking of it that plan and what he wants to do now with his life you know he's 80 at that point 79 80 he said hey George remember what you used to say about scale and you know you he has his own language around it a little different than mine but he I knew what he meant. Uh and I go yeah he goes I think that's it. And I'm like, "So, you're ready to kind of entertain that because it could mean that you're we're not acquiring. Maybe we decide the best thing is he goes, "Yeah, I'm ready for any of it. I just want to have WWE, you know, one last big thing." All right.

(44:38) Any event. So we rejoined and um yeah I don't think you know not all the board members were thrilled we were coming back but uh because there was a new board and you know there yeah probably yeah there's kind of the dynamic thing a little bit of like oh Vince thinks he's got to bring other people in to to do this but whatever but you know it all worked out well we all got along great and you know we did a lot of hard thinking about well you know what is the right model and we said you our view is like there a lot of good partners I'm thinking but you know the idea of very early on even before we went through the process where you're getting bids from people you know there were a few that we thought made a lot of sense and UFC was certainly at the top of it uh you know you'd have this combat sports behemoth basically uh the two large you know if you want to put us and people say well it's not a sport whatever but things that are happening combat it's happening in a ring they're the two behemoths in the world right they're both you know roughly the same size and I'm you know again because of the scale issue oneplus 1 and I never I always call [ __ ] when somebody talks to me about oneplus 1 in three I go no it's not this one because of the scale of eyeballs I mean the shorthand is I thought if you had one eyeball it was worth x but if you had two eyeballs it wasn't 2x it was 2.5x right and when you're talking about millions yeah right so I I believed that and I had a very hard you know data driven point of view on that so in any event yeah we did a process typical strategic process Yeah, we had multiple biders.

(46:10) Obviously, everybody was very interested and we just and we ultimately thought the best deal was was the one we picked and and it's been a home run. I mean, it was a great deal when we did it and it the stock I think is I don't you know I'm I'm no longer in the in the stock, but I think the stock's almost doubled since since we did it. So, it was a it was an amazing deal. So, two great businesses, the one we built and the one they had built came together and and OnePlus 1 was is better than is more than two. So, yeah, it was great. But I, you know, the ego element. I I'm a kind of usually the, you know, don't really give a [ __ ] you know, what people think of me. I, you know, so I kind of I don't I stuff kind of flows off my back for the most part, but, you know, I I would be lying if I didn't say that that that being public that we were back, this great outcome, you know, kind of the warm welcome I got, you know, going back to the company was great. In fact, Vince me meets us.

(47:03) So since that dinner, we hadn't seen each other face to face or it had been texts from time to time, but it had been 3 years or so since we had seen each other. And so we go back into the building, you know, go up to the, you know, the executive floor in the building. He's there. We're waiting in the al co waiting for us as we kind of come off the elevator. And he's like, "Welcome back, you know, welcome home." And and he got a little choked up. We got a little choked up. I think the only reason we didn't break out crying is just that was the period where he I don't know if you remember but he had a little pencil thin mustache he had grown like the Clark Gable look uh which for a guy who never had facial hair and I remember I was I was like what the hell is that you know but I thought he was joking me because I had grown my little goatee and I thought that was him poking fun at me for doing but anyway it was really warm um it was a is a is a moment I'll you know it's kind of frozen in my head.

(47:55) >> Yeah. Well, maybe he did it for that reason so you guys wouldn't start crying. Again, there's a lot of meat on the bone here. We will definitely have you back talk a bunch of different things, but you mentioned throughout is very important to us is data and data driven decision-making and understanding the fans. Obviously, that was a through line throughout your career at the WWE. It's been a throughine your career both since the return and then after you left. So, what does that mean? Like when you say you're looking at the data, what does that mean? What do people not totally understand about fans? What should people be thinking about when thinking about fans? Well, look, everybody gets the the data, you know, it's not like that people don't understand that they get it. It I always say is are you willing to do the difficult stuff. So, I'll give an example.

(48:34) As you know, getting data of how pieces of content are doing on an individual platform is relatively easy to do, right? If you're on YouTube or Facebook or you'll get that data. What's much harder because these are proprietary reporting systems, right? What's much harder is to take to know how one piece of content that was on multiple platforms how that content is doing across the board so that you can not only look at hey I got a hundred streams or or I got a million streams or 10 million whatever but that you know this piece of content this is how it did overall this is where it did better relative to other having the system in place right the guts of the system I would say it's not the data analysis it's the data engineering putting the architecting that so you can do that real time, not ad hoc where you're like, oh, you know, let's look at this, but so that every producer is producing content is seeing that real time. So our our athletes are seeing how theirs are doing, right? And and people are now kind of inspired by what's working, what's not working. That infrastructure, you know, we built that from scratch. I always said when we when I started there were zero data engineers and zero data analysts. When I left, we had small teams of both. But it's doing that. And what you see when you go around is of course people are using data but they don't they I I always say they they they they dabble in it. They do a little bit and then it's like all right well this it's going to cost this much. It's secondord impact a lot of times. So that when you're trying to put the business case together you know you have somebody going well yeah but so we'll spend blah blah blah on the data. Where are we going to get it? And you start saying well the better we understand our fans the better we'll engage them. So media rights or veteran rights that it'll drive that but it's not direct. So you have to believe that sponsorship the same thing you know it's like be not you're not selling every eyeball but when your sponsor pitch shows this deep understanding of your fans that then you can help the your sponsor activate because you understand the fans. all of that you have to believe that there's a it's not it's it's not a direct economic like I build the widget I know I can sell the widget for X it's not that and that so that's the that's the issue with data being really driven through an organization Michelle and I both believe and then we saw it work right so we have the belief in and then we saw what it did so when we go in we're very passionate advocates for that investment and then you know what we try to do is bring the CEOs and boards along that's saying we get it. It looks like a cost center. This is going to be the best invest you know five years from now you're going to be looking back and saying this is the best investment.

(51:11) >> And then this goes to our final question which we asked all our guests in line with the data is artificial intelligence. Yeah. >> Are you think about artificial intelligence either as an investor or you mentioned before one of the things you leaned into early was the disruption in content and content creation and the importance of live. So hey what do you think artificial intelligence from a data perspective? Yeah. I mean, you know, it's it's right. It's the biggest thing probably that I'll see in my lifetime. You're younger than me. You might see something bigger afterwards. I probably won't. Uh I mean, this is that big. I always say it's not the internet. Uh this is much more like the integrated circuit. It is foundational technology that's going to do it. The internet was connecting a bunch of computers. Yes, it transformed the world. I get it. But there wasn't real core technology there. The integrated circuit, there was. Right.

(51:59) That that changes things. the steam engine that changes the world. >> Yeah. >> The integrated circuit changed the world and allowed for the internet and I think that's what we're seeing here. So like everybody it's absolutational. Here's the thing, and I've seen it a million times. Every time new things happen, people dabble, especially the uh the incumbents, right? Because making, you know, in my view, to get the real value of AI, it's not typing [ __ ] into chat GPT even or layering agents. It's rethinking the entire business of how it how it the business should operate. You know, that's where startups have big advantages, right? because they're they don't have the tech or cultural debt that incumbents do.

(52:45) >> Exactly. >> So now so that to me is the is the you need to have your hair on fire on this. Now I will say this sports which is the asset class or the business I know the best has a massive moat right it is very hard for a startup to do anything that's going to hurt you know in our case La Liga leon volleyball world ecquin network these are businesses that have you know in business term real modes but getting back to the question the the challenge right that every business will have is to resist the temptation to dabble. So, everybody's doing something in AI. Everybody, because you'd look like an idiot if you weren't, right? So, you're doing it's what are you really doing? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Everybody's got chat bots in the on their, you know, that they have can access. Okay, great.

(53:36) That's good. You're building knowledge bases. That's good. But if I were the CEO of a company today, I'd be thinking how what does this look like if I were to rebuild what I'm doing today from an AI now with this tool available, what would that look like? Not how do I duct tape it on, but how what would it look if I really was building something today? And so I would also say look, it's another thing that Michelle and I bonds us is we don't dabble. like we do a lot of work to figure out what to do and then in my words, not hers, we execute violently, right? Uh we we will now once we decide we're going to well then now we're going, you know, and we're going hard and and we don't dabble. And that's not for everyone, by the way, but it works for us. But I would say to me, yeah, it's transformational obvious. The thing is, I think the winners will be the ones that don't dabble and then the other ones won't win as much. Although like I mentioned in our lucky case, what we're involved with, there is a pretty big moat around that even for something as transformational as >> Yeah. And as we talked about, we'll talk about those other things next time.

(54:41) >> This has been great. Great. I'd love to do it and I'm really impressed with what you guys are doing. So I would love to be on there. >> Appreciate that. And we should get the book title in one more time before we go. >> Yeah. Sometimes wrong but never in doubt. George Barios.com. Like I mentioned, you can order it as well as uh read the prologue and see if [music] you think you like it. George, great to have you on podcast. We'll have you back on soon and and thanks for your time. >> All right, great.