The ROAR Podcast: Jim Renne, AECOM

# ROAR Podcast: Jim Renne (AECOM)
**Guest:** Jim Renne (AECOM)
**Date:** 2026-05-07
**YouTube URL:** [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aloemtwI5dI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aloemtwI5dI)
**Source:** YouTube auto-generated captions (no speaker diarization)

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(0:05) What does it take to design a venue that doesn't just host a game but anchors a community? In this episode, Caroline sits down with Jim Renne. Senior Vice President and Managing Director of AECOM's Sports Practice and one of the most influential voices in sport architecture today. An architect by training Jim's career launched on the first privately financed arena in NBA history. From there, he helped reimagine Arthur Ashe Stadium for the US Open. Designed the first MLS-specific soccer stadium for the Montreal Impact and led the adaptive reuse of three downtown Detroit warehouses into what became Ford Field.

(0:50) Today, he leads AECOM's Global Sports Practice. Caroline and Jim discuss why the industry remains stubbornly risk-averse how mixed-use districts are reshaping the economics around the building itself what it means when premium offerings have grown from three products to 20. They get into the convergence of technology and infrastructure the emerging role of vertical takeoff vehicles on game day AECOM's work as a partner of LA 28 the first Olympics game to stage without a single new venue being built and how data and AI are changing the way capital decisions get made.

(1:27) They close on what's at really at stake. Not castles for billionaires but assets for communities. Few people in the industry can speak to the evolution of modern sports venues with the kind of first-hand authority Jim Renne brings. Having helped design the buildings, the experiences and now the districts that have defined an era. I'm Bryce Maddock and this is the Roar podcast. >> Welcome to the Roar podcast. I'm your host Caroline Valverde and with me today is Jim Renny, senior vice president and managing director of AECOM's sports practice. Welcome to the podcast.

(2:09) >> Great. Thanks, Caroline. Happy to be here. >> Yes, I I know you've been traveling a lot so very much appreciate your time and and especially busy time of year, too. So excited to have you and to hear all your wonderful insights. How we start a lot of these episodes is asking you to tell us a bit about your career journey and how you arrived to the role now. So would love to hear you just talk a bit about that. Um AECOM and all the things before that and and how you ended up where you are now. >> It's certainly a long journey given my age, but I'll try to make it very condensed.

(2:41) I think that, you know, I was really interested in architecture, obviously. So I'm an architect, right? So I'm an architect followed through um in the profession. Um at some point early in my my career, I ended up working for a company that actually was doing some work in sports. And at that point time, the company was uh finishing up the first privately financed arena in the NBA. And up until then, you know, in the history of uh professional sports and facilities, you know, they were typically infrastructure projects taken on by public sector. But uh the the team that we worked for, um the Detroit Pistons owner had decided that there's a way to do this and have to find a way to pay for it. So it was really the the launch of my starting to understand how to connect architecture and sports business. Needless to say, I was still pretty young and that process led me to getting experience in working for professional tennis, the US Open.

(3:42) We were just finished designing the main stadium, Arthur Ashe, at um in in Flushing, New York, which then I got a chance to circle back years later to to do more work there. And then we started doing work for the MLS. And so we were doing probably the first MLS specific soccer stadium. And from there we end up doing four more MLS stadiums. That would call those sort of gen one soccer stadiums. So during this time you know all of a sudden I was immersed in sports. I loved it. I think sports and venues related to sports and activation and entertainment you know affects so many people right?

(4:18) Thousands of people. It was a real I was really excited to be able to design things that that affected people. And then one does when you in your career become more sophisticated in understanding that going back to thinking about that business side. And it really stuck with me for the rest of my career. Totally understood the the connection between creating places where people want to be and people want to experience the event. But connecting that with the value of that people willing to pay to experience that event in a very unique way. So fast forward I end up leaving a a firm that is a partner to start up a owner's rep practice at a company that really started to get into sports. And while owner representation and project management was a core business as was real estate I was able to focus on on sports side of the business and and representing professional teams sometimes public sector to to develop their sports facility. And you know as an owner's rep as you would imagine not only in my really focus on the design frankly I'm going to focus on everything everything that has to be done in order to create and satisfy kind of the vision objectives particularly the business objectives of my clients. Oh excuse me.

(5:30) So that really gave me another perspective with respect to entire process that one has to go through from enabling an actual vision how you finance that engaging public sector understanding how to unlock real estate understanding how to create destinations beyond the sports facility, uh and as as the industry has grown, so has how consumers of sports evolved. So, no longer do you have kind of just the avid fans that are focused on wanting to watch the event, whatever event that is, um but you had casual fans coming in and wanting to experience the event, but also wanting to experience the sort of aura of being at a large event. And you might work at at the US Open, you know, which is really unique in the sense that you got to at that time it was 2 weeks of just non-stop action, um focus on what is going on. Um there are so many different levels of what do you experience from being in the field courts to being in the stadium. And uh so, experience of the fan was was critical and it started diversifying.

(6:43) Um you know, try try to one arena's back to going back to Detroit Pistons, you had um suites, you had club seats, and then you had general admission seats, right? And at the time that the the the value was unlocked was the owner of the Pistons, you know, we we were able to bring the suite product down into lower bowl, which was never done before, right? So, think about that in the progression of where we are today, where you might have two products of premium, maybe three products of premium in the old days, 20 years ago or more, to today we might have 20 different premium products. And that's to to to address the the the preference of fans, right? Everybody now wants different kinds of experiences to the extent that we're personalizing experiences for fans, which is which is today's challenge. So, today I went from being the owner rep and and had a really amazing opportunity to then join AECOM with a really long legacy of of designing sports facilities and to take on a leadership in in running this practice. So, that gave me an opportunity to now really focus refocus, let's say, a design practice really focused on the business objectives of the client, but also my experience, you know, in the last 7 plus years really working on mixed-use destinations surrounding sports is giving us, I think, another another perspective of experience, another another level of understanding of what value is to not only fan, but also to the investor, to the to the team, and so on. And and so today, you know, we're continue to diversify our practice from the standpoint of different types of work that we do, as well as extending our our capabilities, broader capabilities within the AECOM practice to reach out to planning these destinations and helping develop the infrastructure and so on. So, that's that's kind of been my career journey for the last over 30 >> Amazing. Thank you. I think you're reading my mind a bit, cuz I was going to ask you a bit about the evolution from from your time seeing stadiums and arenas and how they evolved, and you mentioned the mixed-use districts, which is kind of this next evolution way beyond the stadium or arena.

(9:02) Um so, I know you've talked a bit about that, but I guess I would phrase the question as what has surprised you most about the evolution of stadiums and arenas over your your time? >> Yeah, honestly, what surprised me it continued to surprise me was how slow the sports industry is to adapting to change. You know, as as architects, designers, you know, we're we're we're creative, right? You expect us to be creative. And we can dream up all kinds of things that could be different, right? So, then you put on the business hat and say, well, it's different, but it's got to be a value for that difference. Well, the reality is the sports industry is just like many industries is risk averse. Um, you know, when I was with my as a partner of a previous firm, we proposed some what seemed like outlandish ideas like, you know, the upper bowl just doing away with an upper bowl that, you know, the experience is not great. It costs the most to build those upper decks and translate that into a different kind of product that today's fans uh would potentially value more, right?

(10:08) But, oh my gosh, we've talked for years with clients that really loved the idea, but was, you know, have been very hesitant to change the typical, call it the typical bowl of a of a sports facility. We're not that different today than what was done two over 2,000 years ago in the Colosseum, right? We're still the same. Yeah, okay. So, of course, there's events and you got to watch the event and so on, but but the reality is our our culture's changed so much and, you know, how we experience and what how we want to experience an event has changed and and our preferences have changed.

(10:40) So, that's what uh surprised me the most is just just that I wouldn't call it resistance to change, but uh let's call it, you know, it's very incremental and risk is we're all going to be risk averse. So, that that risk of changing something that everybody expects has always been there. So, that's what surprised me the most, I would say, Carolyn. >> Thank you. Yeah, that's interesting. I I wasn't expecting that as an answer because we now as Surge is very focused on the sports mix use piece of it and all of the ancillary around the stadium arena. We talk a lot about innovation and immersive experience and the evolution of technology and and that is something that moves extremely fast.

(11:19) So, for you that how do you reconcile some of that now, I guess, and how is AECOM grappling with some of that stuff? >> Yeah. >> Trying to stay up to date with technology and trends and what's what are things going to look like a year from now versus five years from now versus 10 years from now as you know an industry that as you're saying may move slower. >> If I put on my broader AECOM hat, you know, where we we do very large projects and we we work with the public sector you know, it's a big part of our practice and when you're thinking about putting in place infrastructure and I'm going to use that loose loosely because infrastructure could be anywhere from roads and bridges to technology backbones to um let's call it even sports uh facilities. They become you know, they become they're physical, right? So those are hard there's a huge investments that go into that.

(12:10) They're hard to change once you make that investment and put it in place. So that's not really going to change, but what does what will change is really rethinking what is permanent versus what is transitional. I'm not going to call it temporary, but let's call it transitional, right? Which it means that even even today our sports clients really talk about, "Well, how do I future proof this?" Well, the reality is you really can't, but what you can do is think about flexibility, thinking about not being overly specific about the solution you're bringing to the table whether it's a real estate solution just you know, an arena solution um a seating solution where we know that over time you put this put this infrastructure in place.

(12:53) You know, you're going to end up changing it because you're going to have to sort of find ways to make it to keep it relevant. Plus infrastructure ages and things start breaking down once you maintain it and so on. So technology on the other hand and that intersection of technology with infrastructure is is a challenge, right? So how does how does technology influence uh buildings? Uh let's call it you know, I'm going to stay with sports. Changes the two things. Changes the the fan experience, the user experience, right? So you're you're augmenting their experience with technology. And it does change the the infrastructure itself, the ability to you know, operate efficiently, operate with less cost by by utilizing systems and new technologies. And so, but the bricks and mortar, if you will, probably not going to change too much.

(13:42) Maybe arenas and stadiums are getting smaller because you don't have exactly the same, you know, let's call it avid fan, well, intensity perhaps, that that it would have in the past. But, at the same time, how you experience sports maybe not just in an arena or stadium, it's it's maybe activations that occur elsewhere. The industry has always been challenged with, you know, how do we compete with the living room? Right? And, you know, I don't know what the answer is to that, but I think the answer starts with how you can how you create a unique compelling experience for that person to be willing to spend their time and money to go somewhere that they can't do anywhere else in their living room, right? So, I'm not really answering directly your question, but I think there's this convergence that's happening and it's really how we adapt those convergences. We just had a I mean, I we I spent an afternoon with a team not, you know, just this week actually.

(14:33) And we were talking about transformation and how do we address, you know, access to a sports facility and how do we address our our our really high premium fans and improve that experience from, you know, uh what we used to call street to seat, we call it from maybe living room to to seat. Uh and, you know, we're talking about um vertical transportation. Not like elevators and escalators, we're talking about helicopters, right? Or we're talking about VTOL, you know, vehicles and sort of, you know, that's our industry, you know, our our company, for for example, is very very um forward-thinking about how to how to move that industry forward so that not only is it safe, but it's but the you know, but the economics make sense and it actually is a way to transport people. So, it's not just your car or public transportation, not just Ubers, you know, ride sharing more, but now you have these vertical vehicles that kind of come in, drop you off, and then move on. So, that's kind of how, you know, the evolution of not just a broader industry, but thinking about how that affects the business that I'm in, which is creating these places for for our clients and for their fans in unique ways. So, it's still incremental, right? I mentioned that earlier, it's still incremental. And I always feel like we're in the sports industry, we're trying to get our clients to kind of catch up.

(15:56) But, you know, um we get it. We get, you know, we have to kind of inform, do incremental improvements, make sure, you know, there's there's a return on that investment, um and then you keep going. So, >> Thank you. Yeah, there's so many points I like thinking of all the next questions I want to ask you. One that I want to touch on transportation, since you mentioned is always very interesting topic for folks in particular for the public when they think about stadiums and arenas and the traffic and how you deal with all that. And I think a lot of these projects now and as they expand to with the mixed use, the multimodal transportation and you mentioned helicopters.

(16:32) >> Yes. >> I Yes, can you talk a little bit about any evolution around that in transportation and how you think about transportation or for game day and then beyond and I cuz it's always this push and pull of, you know, there's requirements around how much parking is needed and then there's certain >> Yeah. >> markets where it's like tailgating is like we need our parking lots and but at the same time it's like you can do so much more and there's all these other considerations around how you use that that land and space. Um so yeah, I'd love to hear you talk a little bit more dig in a little deeper on your transportation and how you're thinking today.

(17:06) >> Well, you know, talk about these mixed-use developments and entertainment districts and so on. So, you know, you're expanding the the the experience for the users. Now, I'll say one thing first of all, when when you know, we're when we're planning these destinations and mixed-use districts around sports and entertainment venues, I mean, the reality is in real estate, um, it also has to work on dark days, right? It's almost like a, you know, it's a given that yeah, your bars and restaurants will be full on game day. Yeah, your your hotel rooms will be full when you have an event taking place maybe the day after or night before.

(17:41) But but the reality is that some of the fundamentals of real estate still have to hold is that, you know, if there's if it's a dark day, the event that's still going to be all operate, right? That the restaurants are going to still be used. Um, the people, you know, um, are going to still going to be office, you know, that day and so on. So, when you think about that ecosystem in cities and smaller, let's call it, um, destinations where there's mixed-use, when I talked about with the helicopters that were, you know, I I think the vertical takeoff and landing VTOL called vehicles that they're being now developed and then trying to figure out what the infrastructure is for that, even even more so for these destinations because while, you know, it's not as practical to try to land on a stadium, right? But it's definitely practical this, you know, just like you might have a Uber parking lot or a a, let's call it a bus station or a transit station, you can easily conceive of a VTOL station where vehicles come and go, right? So, and I think that is very appropriate for these destinations where they can kind of come in.

(18:43) It's just a different mode of transportation. You know, for now, I think we can start thinking about and our company is thinking about, you know, how do you actually deploy that safely with with with investors? A ton of a ton of private equity interest in this right now. And and it's certainly institutional investment sort of looking at this and and trying to understand what the what the future is. We've talked to a couple let's call it development groups in sports that are trying to create that part of the infrastructure, too. So, transit-oriented developments, we've known about that. We know they're valued.

(19:18) Um you have to be planned properly, but when you mix TODs with sports entertainment, and then you you diversify TOD to include VTOL, that's actually easy transition. There's a lot of logistics related to that, obviously, in the year and and other things, but I think it it just makes a ton of sense. So, we like that. We like, you know, opportunities for for people to get to these places in alternative ways. Um you know, we our our country is a car culture car culture for sure. And but that's for those of us that live in large metro areas have, you know, reasonable, you know, public transportation systems rely on that. And and that's great. But most of the country doesn't have that. And uh so, we have to be able to adapt and make it easier for fans and guests and and visitors to our uh to to into these places.

(20:08) VTOL may not be for everybody today, but, you know, who knows what's going to happen in 10 years. Um and then there's and then there others that maybe, you know, um you you put on another layer where people want to live around these. So, mixed-use development also includes, you know, housing of some sort some sort of residential development. So, people don't really actually have to go very far to to get entertained. Um you know, they can walk several blocks to get to it, and they're already there, right? So, >> Very yeah, that Thank you for sharing that. And that brings up the next point.

(20:43) Um you've been working this space a long time, and you mentioned uh some of the public-private partnership element of it. And particularly as we talk about mixed-use, it's even you know, can have an even greater real public benefit. And when you talk about infrastructure and transportation, have you seen with mixed-use development, or even just generally, have you seen any changes or sentiment changes or the way that public officials when you talk about public private partnership look at these stadium and arena projects and or now, you know, with the mixed use element, you know, has there have you seen any changes or evolution in in the way that that piece of it?

(21:21) >> No, that's a good question. You know, there's always been two sides to the argument of supporting sports facilities, right? There are those that claim it has significant economic impact and then there are those that say that you know, it's really not a good deal for public sector to divert whether it's tax dollar tax dollars or whatever to help finance a a venue. I think the argument's changing a bit even more swinging towards look, if if we're also if it also catalyzes other development, then there's a maybe even bigger upside that I think weights towards more why public sector and the public should support again, every deal is different, right? So, you can't this is not a blanket statement, but I think the reality is that there is huge opportunity for upside for for community if there is a development that's right for the community that that takes into account community engagement and and the needs of that community that there's benefit that comes from sports activation, entertainment activation and then development that that it catalyzes.

(22:31) And so, yeah, I mean, we're you know, we people would invest expected a return. So, I think public private partnerships are essential to the growth of this economy to be frank and smart smart deal making is really important because I I I think it's I think the public sector misses out if you shy away from these sort of things. And then yeah, you know, every case is going to be different, has to be scrutinized, has to be evaluated and then you're going to have the right experts in the room to help advise, you know, right? But uh but I think there's a true benefit and I think when we talk about mixed-use destinations, um I I think there's a huge benefit, frankly, for the public sector. Again, it's not too hard to I mean, there are many examples. I'll even cite them because they're already out there and and people can do their research, but where um in some cases, some, you know, some projects, these are long-term projects, by the way. Anybody in the real estate development understands this, you know, and and you know, these are 10-year developments, maybe more, 20 years over time.

(23:40) Um but, you know, that's that's what this is about, you know, you don't Things don't change overnight like that in in in the real estate world and creating culture, uh a place where, you know, people want to live, people want to work, and, you know, being a market oriented market driven society, i.e., we're we're driven by what the demand is by the market. We have to Developers are not doing what people don't want, right? I mean, generally, people, you know, developers are more risk-averse and they'll only build if the demand is there. So, it's a complex conversation, but in in in a nutshell to me, I think creating how sports entertainment catalyzes smart development is a a plus, I think, for for communities, for society in general, if done if done well.

(24:31) >> Okay, thank you. Yeah, no, that's it. Interesting cuz for me, coming into this more from a community development background and just, you know, when you read all the different sides of it, and that's why I find this industry really interesting, too, because there are so many different perspectives and I find a lot on all sides there's a lot of validity to all of them and so, like, where do you find that common ground for all the different stakeholders? And I do think with mixed-use, there's this whole other element that a stadium or arena obviously on its own is not providing and it is a big opportunity with the to be like, yes, we're going to redo some of these roads and fix some of the transportation. Like it it's it's an opportunity to to to uh make it more livable and >> Sorry to interrupt, Carolyn, but let's think about this. I mean, think about the old stadium, especially especially now, you know, I totally understand the the tailgating um you know, mentality of football, for example, having done it and lived it myself so many years, right? But you're dedicating so much surface parking lot in order to accomplish that, which is not really a long-term sustainable solution, not just from a you know, not just from a real estate perspective, but but the reality is, you know, uh acres of parking lot and asphalt is is not environmentally friendly, it doesn't it doesn't, you know, provide opportunity to uh to create more value for community when you're you have empty parking lots when you don't have games.

(25:58) So, you know, it's a it's a conversation that it's been going on and and so again, it's there's that tension, it's a creative tension of you know, benefits versus, you know, um uh risk and and and loss, but but I think in general the wave and the movement is is positive. Um and I think healthy debate is critical. So, that we're all trying to get it right, you know. I'm I'm participating, we're a member of the uh Green Sports Alliance and there's a uh summit coming up again this this year, next week in fact. And um you know, AECOM is a member and we're participating in the conversation of how to you know, how to be focused on um sustainable facilities and I you know, this is not about being registered or certified, this is about thinking about long-term sustainability from an energy perspective, from an environment perspective, from uh infrastructure perspective, from communities and people's experience perspective, that conversation is really critical. So, you know, um we we feel it's important to participate in that conversation since not just our sports practice, but our entire organization is is really focused on making that better future and and development.

(27:10) >> Okay. Thank you. Now, I know you are also working globally, and so I want to transition a bit to how just some of the similarities, differences in both the evolution of stadiums and arenas, and also the mixed-use development when you talk about, you know, the US versus Europe or Asia or the Middle East. I'd love to hear some of your insights and maybe some of the places that AECOM is working or in your other past experience, how and I know that's a big question because it's it's so different across all these different markets. >> Yeah, right.

(27:42) >> But yeah, if there's just any insights on differences you see or trends that you're seeing now in markets versus others. >> Well, you know, I'm probably not going to say anything new that for those who work globally, but um you know, I've been working globally that in various ways for in 20 years and um you know, for my previous firm as a partner, I was opening up offices in China, for example. So, that you know, go back to the between 2012 and 2000, you know, 18, I was traveling to Asia. And a lot of my personal experience and work for the company was working in Asia. And so, between China, Japan, Korea, and and some of the other countries, we Singapore, just you know, Hong Kong, you know, it the cultural differences not only are important to understand, but it's really the frankly business practices, right?

(28:34) And and then how do how does the the country governments and what's their relationship with business? So, in China, my experience there was the government basically was the 100-lb gorilla. And all that means is that, you know, they owned all the facilities. They they controlled investment. And and so the private sector, and frankly even the even the sports, you know, I'll stick with sports for a second. While there's a lot of interest in understanding how to capitalize uh on on on sports infrastructure, I'll call it. Having seen what's happening in the in the west, and particular in the US, um how do how do they create, you know, venues that actually aren't aren't so capital intensive, so have to be subsidized so much by the government, but in fact to be turned over to the private sector to actually run at a profit, right? So, ton of conversation, but like any government, it was very hard to transition that mindset. And despite tons and tons of conversations I've had with government sector uh staff, employees, and advisors, you know, it it it it the interest was there, but it was always difficult to to make that you know, let's call it that that um the commitment to go on that path. Now, let's take, you know, let's take the Middle East for example. Now, AECOM for example is very you know, it's heavily participating in in the Middle East because of our uh the nature of the work that we're doing. And um you know, we're doing we're doing a lot of advisory work there. I mean, just think about that, right? Think about government {slash} investment. And just a completely different perspective. The motivation for investing is very different, let's say, than it is in Europe. Now, I'll I'm going to jump to Europe for a second.

(30:18) And in Europe, um you know, I was just having a conversation about just earlier before this call, actually, about a particular country that has different laws governing public sector investment, development. So, if you're a professional like like I am in our company provides professional services, liability, all these things come into play when when you're actually trying to practice in a country. In that particular country. AECOM is is, you know, where we have we do a lot of government or public sector work in and we're also very interested in making sure that we mitigate our risk, right? So, there's a lot of challenges operating in these countries and that particular country is is going to be a challenge for us to work in. So, I don't know if we'll be able to work in that country. So, and then you take South America, it's a whole 'nother ball of wax, right? And you know, there are some countries that are from It's called I'm not even for me, that's not my opinion, but you know, from a capital perspective, uh capital's willing to invest in and other countries are not. So, it's such a case-by-case basis, clearly Caroline, but you know, different regions uh provide different kinds of opportunities, but they're also looking up for solutions that fit their region and their market and like like even in the US and different states, different countries have different social agendas. And you know, you have to obviously respect that and it's what influences what kind of investment goes into sports entertainment facilities. Um and then, you know, are they are they seen as cultural?

(31:47) I mean, we all know football, European football, is is probably like a religion, right? Um and not so much as as here in the US, but then, you know, that can change, you know, World Cup's going to come this year and things are going to change and the whole new other, you know, motivation to to uh you know, to rethink about how we think about football um here in the states. Anyway, uh I I just feel like um everybody has to understand um the culture, um the the the the legal aspects of of investing and and actually doing work, looking at how you know, what is what is the social Do I say social? I'm talking about social agenda of that of that country, of the people in that country, and then how how is private investment looked at um in relation to public investment and public sector. So, um obviously huge topic.

(32:41) >> Yes. >> But it's interesting, you know, having I had a chance to practice a lot of different countries and at least you do work as we do here in Econ, you know, it's it's it's an interesting challenge. Sometimes, often times frustrating, but but no less motivated and I I frankly love it. >> So, can you tell us what markets you're most bullish on? If you have any moment. >> Well, Europe, I'll just say again, sports perspective, Europe for sure. I used to say 10 what, you know, 10 years ago, when you look at broad regions, US is always still number one from a sports perspective, sports investment.

(33:22) I'll call it sports properties. I mean, that's kind of more global being the team, team venues, and then team now makes these desk developments, right? But also includes other things like sports technology and and and numerous other things. So, you know, we're we're by far the leader in investing in sports, but it's also it's a business, right? Europe has always been kind of second in my mind, you know, 10 years ago I used to think it's US, Europe. I didn't even say Middle East. Middle East was always off and on to me. Just Just didn't know cuz there was there was always kind of a a motivation for investment.

(33:56) But let's just I'm going to go back to to to China and and the Asian countries where I thought that was third in terms of lagging in in private investment in sports business, including stadiums, arenas, and the like, right? So, today, um the European business is certainly matured significantly. And different countries more so than others for various reasons. But you also see a lot of American sports team owners and investors now more globally um owning teams. And again, everybody knows that. I think the the business mentality has moved into Europe for sure. Not that it wasn't there before. I think government you know, regulations, ability own stadiums and arenas for example in in Italy. You just couldn't, right? And so, a lot of that's evolved and now you're seeing that market that is a region really really growing. And so, we're we've been focused a lot on that. As you probably know, we've got a ton of presence in Europe and we're leveraging um our our understanding of the market in different countries, the investment in those countries, and how to work with public sector in those countries. We're leveraging that to to help our private team owners to to navigate how to develop and how to how to how to create what they think, you know, what what what they're trying to achieve for for their teams that and their team fans in those countries, right? So, and then again, you know, the Middle East, it's again, I don't have to say anything new here. It's just other than you know, it's again, motivated by big world events and you know, like World Cup or the Olympics. And you know, the um AECOM is is a really a legacy in working Olympics. Today, we're working with LA 28. We're a partner of LA 28.

(35:44) Um we're navigating the infrastructure for LA 28, which will be the first, you know, Olympics without a new building being built for it, which has its own challenges. Um so, we're we're navigating that um both on our on our design side as well as our construction partners. Uh and you know, we're we've been involved in in Rio, been involved in in London. So, you know, world events like that drive a lot of attention to a country, needless to say, and a lot of a lot of investment goes there. So, that's what tends to tends to drive infrastructure development in the Middle East. Um and so, there it's it's going to be what's what's the opportunity we can serve our clients in a way and advise our clients in a way that that achieves what they're trying to achieve. So, again, based on their um mark you know, their agenda and the country's agenda, country's you know, social agenda, we're we're supporting that. So, um from the standpoint of infrastructure, uh we don't get involved in politics, just to be clear. That's not what it's about, but it's really just about, "Hey, how can we help you achieve a development agenda since we design and build these things?" Uh and we're focused on that. Um So, and you know, you know, we we continue to watch Latin America. Um a lot of great things happening in Latin America. Some countries are really really interesting places to be paying attention to. We're we're paying attention to that as well, but um I think I successfully skirted any particular spot for you.

(37:17) But >> Great. >> We're we're looking at all of it. Yeah. >> Great. So, that's kind of a transition into next question about you've mentioned some really cool, interesting projects. So, can you share what maybe one of your most favorite projects that you're currently working on or from the past and and why? >> Well, um let me let me say two two um two projects. And as you know, I mean, you know how this is, Caroline. You know, anything we're working on is always confidential and unless it's obviously already out in the in the public, we you know, we don't >> that. Yes, and if I >> talk about the stuff, right?

(37:55) But needless to say, um one of the things that I go back to a project I was involved in um 20 years ago. Um and I talk about this because I um it's it's a the experience I had uh designing Ford Field for the Detroit Lions um was was kind of a seminal moment for me in my career, um sort of mid-career, 20 maybe 25 years ago know, Uh the reason I want to bring it up is because you know, at that point in time, um when um Bill Ford wanted to move the team from the suburbs to the traditional suburban stadium, acres and acres of parking lot, and not activated at all in between games, home games that is, right? And we're talking back then maybe nine, 10 home games. And to move downtown to downtown Detroit was a big move. Um and the question was, where do you put a football stadium in downtown Detroit? Now, despite what you think about Detroit, even in the past, you know, it was still a a challenge to do anything in in Detroit, or rather at least to find land that would make sense for people to come down to. Long story, you know, we we started out with designing a a standalone football stadium, like you would expect probably anybody to do. The short story of that is that because of budget region reasons, and the Fords asked us to revisit an old concept we had that was discarded, which was how do we adapt existing infrastructure?

(39:20) I.e. in this case, there were warehouses that were not being utilized as a part of part of the building because you know, it to us it made sense because look, you're you're it's adaptive reuse of a building that's not being used, but also an opportunity to uh connect with a history, you know, in Detroit. And so, to me, it was an obvious well, though it was rejected, we came back to it because we actually could save, you know, probably 25, I think about 25% of the overall development cost by adapting you know, three warehouse buildings as a part of the stadium.

(39:55) 25 years ago. Now, you think you look at Camden Yards, for example, that's that was sort of an inspiration for that, and that was sort of that era, a little bit before that when Camden Yards opened. But it it became a way of thinking about investing in the inner city again, right? And it also became a way of thinking about, hey, stadiums don't always have to be these big, bright, shiny objects that are iconic as stand-alone objects, but they can become iconic from the integration into urban in the urban fabric. So, to me, to this day, I don't I, you know, I I want to say that I just can't think yet of another stadium, certainly an NFL stadium, that has done that. The model, maybe, European soccer, right? Or let's call it football. In the Europe, that's how it happened, you know, stadiums were in neighborhoods and they grew and they grew and they grew. So, that's, you know, historically, we've seen that in in Europe. They've lived that in Europe. In the US, everything's new. I mean, you know, how we are. So, anyway, I think that's seminal, um, uh, and and then and continue to be relevant in the industry. We've done, you know, gone through a major renovation program leading that on behalf of the Detroit Lions, um, not too long ago.

(41:06) And, you know, is there So, you you can still invest, uh, and and maintain the relevance of a of a professional venue and without feeling like you have to create this sort of other thing. Now, the other thing I want I want to talk about was really thinking about, well, thinking about soccer. So, um, we were involved, again, as a partner in this, my former firm, we were involved in the first soccer-specific stadium. Now, to me, that was when the MLS, frankly, in in late '90s, were looking to maybe potentially fold and and and a few investors and benefactors of that league stepped up and and helped to try to launch that the next, you know, the new, um, generation of work, you know, besides Columbus being really the first, we were involved in LA for the LA Galaxy.

(42:03) And at the time, Phil Anschutz owned that that franchise. And and not only was it just a soccer city, but but he created a whole destination for sports, a multi-sports destination that became, you know, Olympic training grounds, one of Olympic training grounds. Eventually, different sports showed up, not just tennis, not just soccer, but velodrome was built. So, to me, that also was sort of a I know, I think about that as sort of another seminal project where sports can create an ecosystem. This case was about sports and in a way is what drove other sort of things to get there. And you get organizations that participate, you get partnerships that were created. Um and and to me, I think that that comes to mind as another, you know, really amazing project. I think while back then, you know, at the time MLS called it the the cathedral of soccer for the US anyways, for MLS. Yeah, it's been superseded by a lot of others, but it's still relevant and AECOM is, you know, is studying and there's some renovations there and we continue to do that with some other MLS teams that we've been involved in. And and so, I'd love to see a sport like soccer just grow and grow and grow. Um and then we're creating these venues that really support the soccer culture in the US. Um and I think what's cool about that is that we're cool maybe creating our own culture um of of soccer that is not, you know, it maybe came from kind of seeing the passion of soccer fans globally to maybe what is what is that for the US. So, it's cool to see a sport like that grow.

(43:34) But again, I I feel like the the stadium for the LA Galaxy was was a really start of that next investment in your professional soccer. >> Yeah. Yes, very exciting and all the um conversations around how will the World Cup kind of put soccer kind of on more of a stage, um will be very interesting to see how all that plays out. So, um all right, I need to get in one question about considering this is the Verus podcast and that is Serge's data analytics platform. And this maybe maybe the question we end up closing on um unless there's any other topics that we didn't cover that you would like to, but uh But yeah, how are you thinking and you thinking about data and using data as there's just so much more capability obviously with AI and how are you using data for the decision-making and and just the how you plan projects and implement your project.

(44:26) >> No, great great question and data's critical. Look, I mean we we all rely on data anymore and and there's really good reasons for that. Um and I'll just take you take one little you know little example where um without sort of sharing too much preparatory information, but you know, we we created a tool um for doing renovations. And what is that tool? That tool what that tool does is it helps to uh take data from other sources, uh cost, uh revenue, on um value propositions on different improvements within an arena. Um and then through the analytics of this particular tool, um are able to then kind of bring a little bit more scientific perspective on uh how you prioritize projects. And so you have a lot of venues have been around a while and you know, it's it's there's always a debate about how much investment you keep putting into a venue before it makes more sense to build new. Um and there's always that threshold where, you know, that happens and we've all we all in sports know all about this. But what we do do is to look at data from various sources. So I talked about just simple things like costs, revenue, income related to maybe improvements.

(45:44) Uh where we we baked in uh analytics and building systems, right? So we we understand building and we're we're also engineers in our company and we can sort of analyze, you know, you know, the I'm not I'm not an engineer, so I'm not using the right words here, but really the the long-term life cycle of building systems including technology. And then how that can that can facilitate and evolve over time. What what I'm talking about here is a tool that we've created that's consolidating all this data and then and then through criteria that we um we we baked in criteria for for prioritizing projects and also to link related projects. So, what we what we talk about, for example, is and we know aging facilities have infrastructure potential infrastructure issues in the the life cycle there and some things have to be replaced or maybe maintained properly you can last a lot longer. But then you have, you know, what we talk about the evolution premium experience for fans. Um we're going to be looking at that and saying, "Hey, you know what?

(46:45) For for your market for this for this particular venue and your sport, you know, we we need to we need to transform um an existing non-performing premium asset to something that's different or take something that's um that's underutilized and trans you know, create something that's that's utilized in a in a very robust way. All those things have implications from a cost standpoint, from a revenue standpoint, sponsorship standpoint, and then you mix that with infrastructure upgrades that have to happen, then you get this complex like decision matrix that you have to vet through.

(47:21) Well, this tool analyzes all that, helps us based on original criteria that we we've established. We fine-tune that with the criteria that the team and their owner and their operator brings or all of them bring to the table. That allows us then to create a result set that we that we think because of the data and the analytics that go through of consolidating and and integrating that gives us information that like that immediately identifies for us what needs to be accomplished. Identifies all the risks associated with it. It identifies all the interdependencies and then if you change one interdependency, what happens? Real time, you get to see what happens, right?

(48:01) So, this is not yet AI and I don't want to call it AI yet, but it's a tool that's we're using today that's been super helpful with with our clients and and us, frankly, to help advise our clients on prioritizing work, what's the capital investment, and from that perspective, they can understand how to what's the cash flow look like and what's the investment look like on an annual basis, what's the cost savings, the operational operational savings, energy savings. We can talk to energy companies and start to negotiate, you know, rebates and a number of other things. So, it's amazing what data can do, honestly.

(48:34) And and when you think about that and think about applying, you know, through AI with, you know, keeping an eye on it, you know, it's we all know we have to be careful about AI, but um uh it's it's it it's made a huge difference and this is only going to accelerate, right? And and I think unless you really take advantage of it, unless you find a way to leverage it, we you're going to be you're going to be challenged to to stay relevant, to be frank. >> Well, thank you. I feel like we've covered quite a bit of topics, so unless there's anything else that can that you wanted to share, uh I can let you go.

(49:09) And I know you got to take the time out. >> I guess the only thing I would just add as we're closing is that, you know, we're this is a really interesting time. It's always been interesting time, I guess. Everybody says that, but you know, we're all challenged with all kinds of things and us in the sports industry and in particular in my case as an advisor, as a consulting designer, architect of not just venues, but developments, you know, just we just know that that there's a lot of opportunity um with creating, you know, a uh not just on the economics and business side, but frankly, when we're focused on creating communities and what's best for communities, I think we're still interested very interested in how do we how do we improve that, too, right? So, sports isn't about just billionaires, you know, spending money and building, you know, castles. It's about really creating uh community assets. And and we're we're super focused on that mindset, as well.

(50:07) >> Well, thank you. I love that. And that is my personal reason why I got into the work because there is, yes, just such opportunity to bring more local community benefit, particularly when we talk about the mixed-use uh surrounding development and all that. So, >> That's right. >> So, thank you. Yes, thanks for sharing that. >> Thanks for the opportunity, Caroline. I appreciate that. >> Thank you so much for being on the podcast. >> My pleasure. >> All right. >> Take care. Have a good day.