The ROAR Podcast: Matt Powell

# ROAR Podcast: Matt Powell
**Guest:** Matt Powell
**Date:** 2026-02-04
**YouTube URL:** [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G3V69B_twg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G3V69B_twg)
**Source:** YouTube auto-generated captions (no speaker diarization)

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(0:04) Some of our world today, including the sports world, sits at the intersection of different disciplines. To honor the days of a myopic view of business, especially sports. Today's guest is someone who sits at the intersection of marketing, media, data, and leadership in a rapidly evolving industry. Matt Pal is the CEO of Morocco, a full service agency with deep expertise in helping multilocation and franchise brands scale their marketing with a strong local lens. Matt's journey in the agency world was not linear. He started out in broadcast journal journalism, moved into media and marketing, and ultimately grew into leading an agency that's now celebrating more than four decades in business. Under Matt's leadership, Morocco has sharpened its focus on datadriven decision-making, integrating creative and media strategies and helping brands translate national scale into local impact. The agency works with major multinational brands like McDonald's and Planet Fitness, navigating everything from traditional media buying to programmatic advertising, foot traffic analytics in the fastchanging world of AIdriven search. In this episode, Matt talked with Adam and walks us through how the agency models evolve from negotiating TV spots over the phone to video and audiences in real time, why data is only powerful when it's tied to real business outcomes, and how local sports, NIL, and community identity are creating new opportunities for brands to connect with fans in meaningful ways. They also dig into leadership, how to guide teams through constant change, how independent agencies compete in a world of consolidation, and what Matt looks for in young professionals when entering the industry today. If you're interested in the future of advertising, sports marketing, and how technology is reshaping the relationship between brands and consumers, this is a conversation you don't want to miss. I'm Bryce Clinton, and this is Revenue Above Replacement Podcast.

(2:02) Welcome to the Northwestern Masters in Sports Administration Revenue Above Replacement podcast. I'm your host, Adam Gman. With us today is Matt Pow. Matt, welcome to the podcast. >> Thank you. Thanks you, Adam, for having me. >> Yeah, hopefully hopefully you're staying warm. I know Dallas and the Dallas area has gotten a freak snowstorm that it usually doesn't get, but >> Well, it is weird. I think we get one of these a year and now because of the issue that happened in 2022 when the grid shut down, everybody just freaks out and thinks we're going to lose power for a week again. So, uh it's it just creates panic, but um yeah, we don't have the infrastructure that you guys do.

(2:42) >> Don't mean to laugh. I mean, obviously it's not good if people don't we don't want people losing power or anything, but right obviously I think as some people who live in the Dallas area, right? It's definitely a different frame of mind than people in the Chicago. I haven't seen. >> Absolutely. >> Uh well, Matt, it's great to have you. We're going to really focus on your work with Moroc, the agency that you lead, but we like to start our episodes the way we always like to start, which is tell us about your career to date, and how you got to the position that you're in now.

(3:08) >> Yeah. Um, you know, interesting career. I came out of college as a broadcast journalism major and kind of stumbled my way into marketing and media specifically out of the gate and worked at a couple smaller agencies um before I got to Moroc and um really wasn't expecting to you know this is my 25th year at Morocco and wasn't really expecting that um you know that's kind of not normal in our industry anymore and um you know I joined kind of with two things in mind when I came to Moroc just based off of the first two agencies I worked at, I was looking for stability, which I can probably feel like I checked that box off. Um, and then the second was really a place where I felt like I had unlimited growth and I kind of feel like I can check that one off too. and um you know started on the media space as I mentioned and really the first 20 years of my career focused there and then I moved into um the CEO role in 2018 at Moroc and um you know for a variety of reasons that that kind of led to that moment but it was never really something I was I was trying to attain but um you know kind of ended up working out the way it did and had a lot of fun doing that as well. Yeah, I definitely want to get into your career.

(4:28) You know, you and I have known each other now for a while and and a long time uh in terms of some various different roles that you were in with the agency, but let's, you know, start what what is Moroc? What what is the what's its background? How did it become the agency that it's become today? >> Yeah. So, we're in our 45th year this year. So, celebrating 45 years. And its uh inception, it was started by two gentlemen who basically at the time they were managing a piece of McDonald's business under a Oklahoma agency and they felt like they were ready to go out on their own. So they went and had a conversation with the uh agency owner and basically he sold them the Dallas office and business for a dollar and um kind of you know saw a spark in them and wanted to encourage it and uh let them launch their agency and um you know we're actually now working with the grandson of the first client we worked with with McDonald's which that's kind of an insane thing in in the advertising and marketing world.

(5:32) >> Yeah. >> And um so from there really we've always had this focus around I would say multilocation or multi-unit at scale. So clearly a McDonald's you know we're working with over uh 4,000 locations. >> Um but you can see how that kind of translates into lots of other categories. So you know clients like Planet Fitness, Midas, etc. with all kind of the similar mindset of this um you know it's local and regionality but it's done at scale and so how can you how can you uh essentially deploy um you know whether it's media creative etc um at scale and uh so that's something we've we've learned and done well and um so we consider ourselves full service full service um but there's kind of a a local regional lens to a lot of the work that we do.

(6:29) >> And when you talk about full service, you mentioned media buying, particularly for our students who are not familiar with the kind of agency work. What does full service mean? What are the services that you're providing? >> Yeah. So, I mean, often in the agency world, you'll have a media only agency or a creative only agency or even more specialized agencies, and we really try to bring all of those pieces together. Um it's interesting though because you know for some of our clients we still are you know the media agency and either they do creative internally or work with another agency. Um but our kind of ideal goal is selling integration and the idea that >> they can have a stronger product by um integrating the different pieces together and you know our creative team working more closely with media only makes a better product for both both teams. So um that's what I and you know I think the um you know inherent challenge there's so much specialization right now that um you know I wouldn't say we actually do all the things and so there's still times where we're partnering with other agencies as well. So >> yeah in particular when you talk about media buying and obviously media buying media planning um you what what do you what does that mean? Obviously that's your background and right a very important part of the agency. So like what what is media buying and media planning and how does that impact the the clients that you're working with?

(7:54) >> Yeah. So um yeah, I I did grow up in that space and there's kind of a the classification between planning and buying. Planning is the ones who really are determining where and how budgets get spent and why to go after different consumer groups and audiences. And then the buying side um you know we break that down into multiple teams who are directly negotiating or working within platforms um to to you know procure the media. So you know our out of home team probably the oldest school buy that we do um they're working with out of home vendors and placing out of home and then we've got you know people in platform buying programmatic digital or social or search etc. Um and so um you know we at different points had outsourced part of our buying but over the last five years we brought all of that inhouse and um seen a lot of evolution and growth by by doing that >> and that that's part of what um you know an interesting position that you're in now obviously given from where you started to where you are. one of the questions we want to talk about um and we'll get even more into what Moroc does particularly the focus on local but you know I just again want to start a little more macro on like the evolution of the agency right from where you started to where it is today you know can you just talk about like what an agency when you came to work at an agency what did that mean to you now if somebody's coming to work at Morocco what would you think that they would think an agency would mean to them >> yeah uh it's a very interesting question especially starting on the media side, you know, we were still most of our arguments or, you know, proposals to clients were still very focused around TV um and radio to some extent, out of home to some extent. And it was just a very different kind of conversation than today because so much of what we were doing was not necessarily trackable was not necessarily you know trackable from a sense of was it actually driving impact for the client. Um we knew how many people saw ads and you know that kind of a thing.

(10:11) And um so you know fast forward to today where there's almost too much data and too much um information at your fingertips that you almost have to kind of parse out what really matters at this stage. But you know from a buying perspective alone just look at that you know team specifically they were on the phone negotiating individual rates for TV shows with humans on the other end of the phone and now we're buying you know digital programmatically almost like you buy stock and um trade on the stock market and so much more sophistication much more you know automation involved involved and um you know that alone and and you could kind of go team by team and have the same conversation in terms of just the level of sophistication and how quickly things have moved. Um it is interesting because on the flip side there's still things that haven't really changed. um you know and and so I'm kind of a student of the you know where we've come from and and some of the kind of tenants of why we exist to begin with and I I there's still a lot of things that are still true and and if you'd learned it in school 30 years ago you you'd still think the same today. So anyway, it's interesting to me.

(11:36) >> Yeah. And that's a one thing I wanted to talk about. You know, you mentioned digital programmatic advertising. trades like stocks. Can you just you know that is a very fundamental shift right how ads are purchased from television to digital. Can you talk about what those ad like what you mean by that again for our audience who may be not as familiar with like how you do programmatic ad buys and what does programmatic mean and how how does that all work? >> Yeah. So um programmatic is a lot like trading stock in the sense that we um are in a platform getting access to different um humans and they're organized essentially by um audience um for the most part.

(12:19) There's other things that you can all kinds of triggers that can tell you that this is the kind of person that's right for the advertising that you're wanting to do. And so you're literally in platform setting parameters and having the ability to bid on people that you want. And so certain audiences are much more valuable and um you know hopefully there's a a return on an investment for that. Um but essentially you're bidding on people in real time as they are moving across the internet. And uh I you know it's fascinating to me um uh kind of how that process works and and um you know you see it in your own digital journey and footprint that you know you click on something on one site and then three or four sites later it's showing up even though you're in a completely different part of the internet. it's now attached you to that um you know to that product or to um that audience and and now we're going to go find you wherever you are.

(13:26) So um kind of the the simplest version of it. Yeah, I think that that's very helpful and it goes to a question that we kind of already are into. So, I want to lean into it since we're already into it is data and the you know, you've already talked about kind of the evolution of data in terms of driving your decision-m but from your perspective as a senior leader now at an agency. What how are you looking at data uh both from a you know these more media planning process but even from a creative perspective? How how is that influencing your decision- making? Yeah.

(13:56) So, interestingly, you know, one of the all agencies have proprietary processes. The one that we use that is more like media focused, but it also encompasses the creative process. Um, we have is called MAP. And, uh, it's an acronym that basically is is measurement, audience, and then platform. And so, most agencies would almost reverse that. they would start with, you know, going into Facebook or whatever platform, then determining the audience, and then let's measure how we did. We actually have flipped that around and said, we really want to know what our endgame is, what behavior we're trying to drive, what, you know, what action we want from a client perspective. And that that is where we start um is what is that going to look like? What are the goals that we have? How are we going to measure that?

(14:54) Then we work towards what is the right audience? Um what's the message we need to put in front of them? And then all of that is an input into now let's go you know buy the media in platform etc etc. So I think um you know all agencies have dashboards and all kinds of tools where they can kind of see that information firsthand. Um we really want that early in the process. Um another example, so there's a tool that you know a lot of agencies and marketers are accessing today called Placer >> and um for us in the multilocation space that's huge because we can go in and you know we're starting to look at a specific brand and we want to know who that customer is, where they're coming from, a lot of information before we start building a plan. Um and that so that already kind of gives us a leg up and it's an example of many tools that we have that are we going to be finding the people in the right place and let's start there. Um and so yeah, very very much a huge part of what we do and and frankly like for our agency, I think it's a point of difference that we um have the ability to connect the dot to, you know, a lot of agencies can say, you know, we got this many eyeballs on something. we're much more interested in did it drive the behavior we wanted um and ultimately increase sales or drive traffic or whatever that outcome is. Um that's uh something that we we work towards up front.

(16:32) >> Yeah, I I did want to dive into the uh local strategy, right? multi franchise or multilocation strategy because uh one of the challenges that we see is right how do you translate data particularly for non-quantitative audiences or and that's something we focus on in our class you know you mentioned placer data foot traffic data driving specific behaviors when you're engaging with clients >> do they you know do they understand or how much do they understand or do you think they fully understand you know all these different datadriven decision-m and platforms that you guys are looking at now >> yeah and it's interesting so from From a client perspective, we at a highest level, we classify our clients in kind of two categories. Um, if we're working with more of the corporate marketing team, generally their knowledge base is a different knowledge base. I wouldn't say smarter, they're just they have different >> backgrounds and skill sets. And so there's certain KPIs that are very important to them. And then you talk to like what you were mentioning, the business owner could be a franchisee, Planet Fitness Club owner, K Cabota dealer. Um, those guys are smart, but they have a more broad sense of the business. And so marketing KPIs don't mean a lot to them. So for us, it is truly about connecting the dots and saying, you know, you've increased spend by X. what is that doing to drive the business? Like that's the kind of stuff that they're interested in. And so, um, you know, we've always kind of talked about, you know, our agency, there's an art to kind of balancing both of those conversations.

(18:12) >> They have different different um expectations and goals in mind often. >> Yeah. And that was my next question. How do you balance those different expectation? What is the art? You know, that's obviously, you know, you can't just look always as much as we like data. Obviously there's interpersonal dynamics and relationships you have to navigate there. >> Yeah. I mean one of the keys and you know Planet Fitness is actually a really good example getting both parties to agree on what is the most important KPI and maybe each of them have like a second priority or a third priority that we watch. But if so, in Planet Fitness's world, it's joins.

(18:50) Um, at the end of the day, how many people are signing up, new customers, net new or returning customers? >> Yeah, >> that's the number one KPI for both of them. And so, it's kind of a vin diagram, if you will, of okay, that's the that's the central piece. We know there's other things that each party cares about, but we're going to make that the kind of hero. Um, that's really important. And you know, but I would say it's it's not a perfect science. We kind of walk that tight rope all the time. So >> yeah, and it's when you're talking about number of joins, one of the things you you know, one of the challenges that we see at our business is, you know, access to data. You know, you can get thirdparty data for lack of, you know, from a place or AI or you can look at credit card transaction data or join data. You know, do you see a do you have uh merging all this different data together? Do you see that as a big challenge? And do you see that your clients are more interested in sharing data if you're able to say like here's what the data is used for?

(19:49) >> Yeah, I would say we have a spectrum right now. You know, uh, Six Flags is a great example of and we don't work with them currently, but um, we had a nine-year relationship with them. Every year they incrementally gave us more data because they saw the benefit of it. >> And sometimes you have to kind of build that relationship over time. In some cases, they're ready to just give you everything and others we're still not getting very much data at all. So a lot of times it really depends on kind of the corporate environment that that brand has and what their level of comfort is. So that's and that's tricky cuz on some clients we're almost feel like we're handcuffed um just because their MO is not to share and um whereas you know we've got other clients and like for us it's the more data the better and and we've built a lot of APIs where you know we're actually often kind of sorting through the mess of the data that comes from our clients um you know even have a better view into their data than they do, which is kind of funny.

(20:55) So, >> how when when you talk about sorting through the mess, how do you guys handle all this different data? How do you handle the mess and how do you put it all together? >> I mean, we're investing more in engineers and and um and then tools, frankly, and you know, certainly AI is helping with that. um taking a lot of the manual labor out of it and making sure you know whether it's tools you know using AI or whether it's existing tools that we have there's there's stuff that we can start to do to to help clean that up. Um so you know that's probably an area we've invested more in than in the last couple years than you know before.

(21:36) AI obviously is a very uh hot topic generally but uh in advertising, marketing, promotion and sports more broadly. So you know one of the things I saw that was really interesting that you guys wrote about was you know generative engine optimization as a playoff of search engine optimization. So one just for our audience can you explain what search engine optimization is and then explain what G or generative engine optimization is? >> Yeah. So if you think about when you go to search for stuff on Google um historically there was always the paid ads and then there was kind of the organic search type of stuff. So traditional SEO is that just organic search that was already there without paid promotion or whatever. And what's interesting and everyone has seen it now when you go into Google there's a third component which is um AI results and human nature is I think you're starting to see a shift where consumers are starting to pay more attention to the AI than even the paid side of things and as you can imagine in the world of you know the Google's certainly um and beyond you know paid has been a significant revenue driver >> for them for many many years now they have to play the game of AI but you're starting to see more consumer behavior get into that space. So um back to your original question on the GEO side of things that essentially is making sure your brand is showing up so in the way that you want it to so that it it shows up in the AI results portion. And um I mean we have some brands that were very flatfooted when that started shifting and um not showing up you know the way they wanted to there and uh saw their organic search you know non-paid search start to um plummet really really quickly. And so for us it was a capability just you know great to add a new capability but also was kind of survival for some of our brands to make sure that they you know didn't lose out in as things were shifting. So, and then you know the next phase of this will be ad placement within the AI environments.

(23:57) Um that you know inevitably any new platform ads are going to come in at some point. And there was even stuff over last week of Open AI finally starting to um put ad paid ad placement inside their their results which they said they wouldn't do but inevitably everyone does it. I mean even Netflix took them a long time but they finally put ads in their environment too. So >> was was that an insight that you know you mentioned about um brands not showing up in organic search and obviously that just deep the decrease in traffic and referrals from organic search and even probably from paid too at the same time. Um was that something you guys identified? Is that something your clients came to you with or was it a com maybe a combination of both as like something where you could really add value in terms of helping them to improve their you know GEO and the way that it was showing up and particularly in the top of Google search from a AI perspective? Yeah, I mean it was probably a combination of those brand to brand. You know, most um we actually were not really doing a lot of SEO for our clients >> pre all of this shift. Um you know, and a lot of our clients either managed it in-house, maybe they're, you know, if they had a separate company that was managing their website, that was part of the ask from them. And I think as this shift happened, it was like, oh crap, we're flatfooted, you know, whether that's the internal person. Um, and then also the, you know, web people are not ready and equipped to move. So I, you know, for us it was kind of like we just got ahead of it and and um now I think we're starting to go back to some of our clients and say, "Hey, this is something we can help with if if it's a problem." So >> yeah, I just I I personally I you know anecdotally at least and through my own research have seen that to be a problem right it's a fundamental shift in how and this is something that uh I think Ben Thompson among many other people in the kind of the technology financial press has identified as a real issue and you know this is potentially a real threat to Google's business paid search business model and search business model and I think it's you know interesting that you guys were like you said not even almost intentionally right because you weren't necessarily working on SEO and it seems to be a way that you guys operate right is like organically, no whatever pun or coincidence not intended, are looking for solutions that are helping your client. One, is that true? And two, you know, one of the things that you guys are are are known for is kind of a local or midsize kind of agency. Do you think that that's a maybe a unique capability or opportunity for midsize or agencies as compared to larger agencies to identify these opportunities and move quickly?

(26:41) >> Yeah, I think so. you know, the larger agencies generally tend to be a bit more black and white in terms of their services and even the kind of budget ranges they operate in. And I would say the other end of the spectrum, you know, smaller agencies than us try hard to be, you know, almost a unicorn and and do too much. And so we often kind of find ourselves walking that tight rope as well. Is is this something we really want to get into? You know, building websites as an example. Um is is something that, you know, sometimes we take those projects on, sometimes we don't. We generally don't make a lot of money at it. you know, a larger agency, if you were talking to a larger agency, they would just refer you to another part of their company or, you know, um, so I don't know. We have to kind of pick our spots. And for me, if if it's if it's something that, you know, maybe I'm not going to make a ton of money just on on this piece, but it connects to the other pieces and helps me be more successful on the brand or opens the door for more opportunities, then I tend to kind of want to go after that if that makes sense.

(27:57) >> Yeah, definitely makes sense. And I think it's, you know, finding the right bal you right finding that balance and finding the opportunities that make sense for the organiz is is a business challenge. It's not obviously unique to agencies. It's something where where can you compete? Where can you differentiate and I I didn't want to get into that maybe a little later, but you since we're talking about it now like how do you see yourself in kind of you know there are um a number of agencies you know you obvious are operating in in um in a competitive situation with agencies sometimes in a coop like you mentioned cooperative situation from agencies there's consolidation of agencies you know in a in a >> dynamic competitive environment. How are you guys seeing differentiated differentiation for your brand and business?

(28:40) >> Yeah, it's been, you know, and and last year in particular was a particularly transitionary year with consolidation. You already have these large holding companies and then they're merging and getting even bigger. In my mind, and you know, we'll see if how it plays out. that does create opportunity because um I think as brands you know are being challenged more and more to deliver in an environment that's not been necessarily straightforward from a business perspective like we're we see opportunity you know the attention and care that a agency our size can give versus a larger entity um I think makes a difference and you know we work really hard to make sure like our senior leadership ship is very involved with brands.

(29:33) The people, you know, our clients have access to us and that's not something you're going to get at a larger agency and so giving them more reasons, you know, from that perspective, um, I think is really important. So, kind of back to your original question, like we see a lot of opportunity within that for sure this year. >> One of the things I did notice is on the website it says, you know, there's a link to CEO Matt for new business opportunities. What was the impetus for that? >> I mean, exactly that. It's it's kind of proving from day one that, >> you know, it's not like a black box that you can get get to senior leaders. And um, you know, part of it was a a little bit of a reaction. The the person leading my agency prior to me uh learned a lot from him kind of near the tail end of his career. he got more behind the scenes than I personally think you should be for an agency our size. And there were reasons why, but for me it was kind of swinging the pendulum the other direction a bit. Um, and maybe maybe swinging it too far, but >> it'll reset at some point. Um, but I I I like I like being able to, you know, have them feel like they they they have the attention of of leadership within the company, and I think that's important. So yeah.

(30:53) >> Yeah, definitely. I think that's again one of the places where you guys could differentiate yourself and I think that's very clear. Um, another area where you guys at least have a lot of experience in and I think have started to differentiate yourself is started to and continue to differentiate yourself I should say is in sports and sports marketing obviously sports program. >> Um, >> what you know how has the agency leveraged sports historically and how is it thinking about leveraging sports from an advertising media buying creative perspective going forward? It's, you know, it's interesting. You know, sports comes in lots of shapes and sizes >> and lots of ways you can access it. And you know from a broad perspective you know you just look at um you know if a we have business that's very local and regional in nature there really isn't anything bigger than sports that kind of gives a personality to a market or um you know a region of a country and you even think about you know we don't buy a lot of local TV today but when we do sports is pretty much at the forefront of that. Um, and from a ratings perspective, all of that kind of stuff. So, but also it's kind of part of the culture of the area as well.

(32:10) And that's something that we we focus on a lot. So, if you look at, you know, I'll take McDonald's as an example. A lot of our most recent case studies um that kind of bring that story to life are very much sports driven. So, you know, great example from last year, we work with upstate New York with McDonald's and those guys are the Build Mafia is a is a real thing. And so, we we built a lot of different assets around and and actually ended up creating their own like extra value meal that's a Bill's Mafia box. Um, and you know, literally they eat it up in that market. And so um so for us sports I think you know it used to be you do a deal with the team and you know I always kind of was like conflicted is this just us buying tickets um for people and what's the real value and now it's it's there's so many different points of entry. I it's definitely something that you're always having to consider. And then I'll take one last comment is >> it's also not just the big four from a sports perspective anymore. I mean, we actually >> helped uh worked with a local uh guy that we knew who was launching the Dallas Pulse, which is the uh our first pro volleyball women's volleyball team in this market. And um there's a lot of kind of niche uh sports that are you know certainly in a market like DFW are popping up. So that kind of creates other points of entry. So >> well between the both between the points of entry the different sports different regions you know you can say we're working in sports but that has a lot of different meanings like you're saying.

(33:55) So what are some of the differences that you're seeing across different markets in terms of you know either new sports or demographics or audience behaviors? Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, a lot of our brands still are mass marketers, so they're still most interested in the bigger sports in terms of just getting the >> awareness that they need. Um, so often that tends to be where we go and it truly is a market bymarket thing even on the same brand. you know, you know, Dallas is a football market and there are certainly relevance with the other sports, but that's kind of where the conversation starts, whereas a Houston, I would argue, is probably more of a baseball market.

(34:40) And, you know, the prioritization, I guess, is different. And so, I think that and then then you throw in like just the personality of the teams and how well you can work with them often shapes that. So, back to Dallas, Cowboys aren't the easiest to work with. So, you often find other points of entry. Um, and so, I don't know, that is part of it. Um, but then when you get into some of the more niche, like I I want to do more in that space, it's tricky because, um, you know, you really have to have a pretty good lock in on is that audience my audience?

(35:17) >> Yeah. um because they're generally you know obviously much less audience um and eyeballs involved and so um but you know I I to me to me I'd rather have the variety just and and I guess the third thing I would add to it sorry is um you know we haven't talked about NIL and um that's been interesting that NIL actually opened the door for more local regional opportunities because college is inherently local regional and >> I've never had access to that kind of talent before >> and I you know Midas is a brand for us that almost immediately jumped into that and started doing things within their markets and I would never have predicted that ever. Um so anyway it's been it's been kind of fun to see how that opens the door.

(36:12) >> Yeah. I mean what's been your experience working that was going to be my next question. What's been your experience working at NIL? What are the, you know, how is it? This is obviously novel for everyone. What's it like working with the athletes potentially working with their agents? What are brand, what are brands expectations? What are some of the metrics that you're seeing from an NIL perspective? >> Yeah. um you know all of it has been um I think it's it's it's works a lot like I would say traditional that's kind of hilarious but traditional influencer campaigns um in the sense that there is there are metrics that kind of determine is this working is it successful I would say they tend to be from a talent perspective a little easier to work with than you know more broad um influencer stuff that we do Um, you know, I for me it's just on a personal level, I don't know that it's great for the actual sport. Um, uh, but I have to kind of put that to the side and understand like this is creating new ways to connect people in markets and and that that's fun from that perspective. But yeah, and I it's kind of a work in progress. So, you know, different different by brand, different by region, different by sport, all of that kind of stuff. It's we're still kind of navigating it all.

(37:35) >> Are you seeing, you know, it's been a little while since now, not too long, um since the kind of initial phase of NIL has been in place. Have you seen a consist still consistent demand from your clients that they're looking for uh NIL opportunities or are you seeing it level off or you seeing it increase potentially? Uh I would say slight increase. Um I would say slight increase. >> And what do you think? Yeah, it's been the cause of that. >> I think people are seeing, you know, the benefits of it. The ones that were cautious before are still not completely there yet. Um, but I think the um, you know, I it's another channel and so I think the the challenge with that is is like where do I pull dollars from to fund something like that and so you know that's kind of inherently I where I see some brands that are hesitant to date and haven't done that yet. So um, >> yeah. So that that's interesting because I I that's something I'm looking at too is like does this you know obviously NIL is relatively new player transfer is relatively new there's opportunities you know these athletes are potentially in market only for a shortened period of time whether they go professional or transfer um and you know how does that all work and operate our brands but it sounds like right that you know the level of engagement and the level of um success in those metrics are looking particularly for local advertisers is a good way to engage with their customers and drive the behaviors you're talking about.

(39:08) >> Yep. Yep. >> Um so we're getting towards the the end of our time and I want to just wrap up with a couple questions. Um and more future looking you mentioned already obviously investments in um data engineering technology potentially artificial intelligence. Um what are you seeing either for for Moroc specifically or agencies more broadly? Where do you see investments particularly as you know with the evolution of media consumption changing you know uh media platforms how do you see Morocco positioning itself for future and future growth over the next 5 to 10 years?

(39:43) >> Yeah and you know it's active conversation because our world is changing so rapidly so you know you're kind of looking a year or two ahead uh in this kind of environment. And it reminds me a lot of the early days of internet um and internet advertising where you knew that you had to kind of get in the game, but you also had to be okay with the rules changing consistently. And you know, as an independent agency, we don't have unlimited resources. And so you have to make smarter bets um from that perspective. And and we tend to I would say like most independent agencies, you're not going to be investing in massive buildouts of proprietary tools and things like that, but we found a lot of success working with partners to build something that's proprietary to us, but on the back of something that they have um and being able to uh leverage that. And you know I I like that because it gives us a little bit more flexibility to do what's right by the client whereas you know the larger agencies their marching order is to sell the tool that either they purchased or built. And so for us it's kind of a you know we it lets us remain a little bit more neutral and and also protects our level of investment into it as well. Um and the other thing is so we're part of WPI which is a global network of independent agencies. Um there's about 80 agencies in the network and one of the things we've talked about is are there opportunities for us as independents to come together and build things from time to time. Um so we're starting to explore that a little bit. Um you know if you get three agencies to invest in something that's that we could all use that's obviously like beneficial to all of us. So, we've talked about that. H >> you know, obviously you could be in competition with the same people. How how do you navigate those dynamics?

(41:39) >> They're pretty good in terms of the agencies that they've let into the network. Um for the most part, they keep geography um separate >> and then capabilities wise try to be smart about not too much overlap there. And so when you're with them, you don't really feel like you're a competitor. it's truly more of a fraternity to some degree where you're helping each other. Um, even if you and I would say more of definitely like 80% of the time it's an agency in the network coming to me saying I need help pitching something versus me actively showing up as a competitor to somebody. And so that kind of spirit helps.

(42:27) >> Yeah. Oh, definitely. And you know in that vein kind of you know obviously you're working with uh your competition or not even I would even call it more like a term like coopetition right and even then the more on the cooperation than the competition side >> but another besides aligning or working with potentially other agencies you have to manage all this change with your employees and that's one of the biggest challenges that you know either younger leaders or more experienced leaders are facing. How how do you help your agency and the employees particularly at the agency navigate this kind of sea change that's happening from a technology platform perspective?

(43:01) >> I mean I think one of the shocks in my career when I got to a certain level of management was realizing that most the people in the world are kind of change resistant. >> Yeah. >> And I always grew up good, bad or indifferent. I just always liked change and that made life more exciting. And so >> I'm still learning. Frankly, that's an ongoing learning process for me is how do you bring people along? Our former CEO, he would always say, you know, you're going to have a third that of the company that's ready to jump in on something new. You're going to have the second third that is watching to see if the first third, you know, how that goes.

(43:43) And then there's the other third that is just going to be reluctant no matter what you do. And he's like, don't worry about the last group. You got to worry about the first group and then plan for that second group to if you're successful, the second group will follow. And then you got the majority of the agency moving in that direction. And I it's very simplistic, but I always kind of it helps because if you start listening to the third group, you will never get anywhere. Um but if you start with the first group and you get that a buy in and uh I've heard similar analogies um you know uh you probably know of the name Rashad Tbakawala but um from the pubis world and he always talks about when you're starting something new give it like its own ecosystem where it can just flourish and be successful.

(44:34) don't try to do it within the contest of context of what's already existing. And that's easier said than done, but we've definitely been more successful when we incubate something and then oh shoot, now everybody's interested because it's like cool and moving fast and doing things that it's never done before. So, it's kind of similar similar philosophy, I guess. >> Yeah, that definitely makes sense to me and I think it's a good way to look at it. So final question that we ask all of our guests, you know, as I mentioned now multiple times, we have a lot of students and young professionals, people are earlier in their career.

(45:10) >> So as a senior leader, um what are you looking for when you're making hires? What are you looking for uh for employees and how can they you know if they're looking particularly for students who are looking to enter either enter the career or get promotions in the career? What what are what's some advice that you have for people looking to move up the career ladder? >> Yeah, it's funny. I think about this a lot um because I still very vividly remember starting my career um as even as much time has passed and >> I was this is kind of a weird tangent and I'll get back to your question but I always think that there's kind of this interesting connection from a generation to not the next generation but the one after that like so example I think boomers and millennials have an interesting connection um you know when I'm in Gen that's kind of in the middle of that.

(46:00) >> I actually am starting to read more stuff about how similar Gen X is to Gen Z and there's a lot of stuff, you know, and I've got kids that are Gen Z that I like about this group. But I will say the one thing that I've started talking about to that group a lot is this idea to well really two things from a a macro perspective. Um I think Inside Out 2, the Pixar movie nailed it. anxiety is kind of the biggest barrier um to that group and you know co certainly played a role in that >> and so to one of the things I always talk about is put yourselves in scary situations learn how to fight through it we were told when we were growing up you know fake it till you make it and >> I think there needs to be a little bit more of that vibe from this group they're a lot more cautious um and certainly they're having less exposure to how to operate in, you know, physical settings than they ever have before.

(47:04) Like I learned so much by watching people in meetings or listening to phone conversations. Um, and I Anyway, so that's part one. And then part two is actually like the net result of doing that is this kind of idea of tenacity. And I definitely see a lot of um people coming into the workforce where they're being coached. If something's difficult, don't do it. Like go find something else. It's not good for your mental health. And >> while I believe that mental health is a real thing and those are important considerations, I can definitively say like the best points in my career were when I fought through a difficult situation and came out on the other side. And so like even with my kids, it's like you've got a difficult situation. What are you going to do about it? And like how are you going to get through that? Um anyway, sorry I didn't to give that long of an answer, but >> uh I I I think that I the ones that are winning and, >> you know, making the right advancement are putting themselves in difficult situations and learning how to fight through it. So >> yeah, and I think uh really good place to end it. I think really good advice because I think you know one of the questions about technology particularly generative AI is how much relatively speaking it can make things easier and you need this level of tenacity and typically in your career you're going to encounter challenges and >> you need to be able to handle them. Um, like you said, mental health and anxiety are real things to deal with, but at the same time, you can't let that, you know, >> uh, or you have to figure out ways or hopefully to manage that while also achieving success in your career. That's a difficult challenge, but it's certainly something that's, you know, I think a lot of senior leaders are thinking about is how do we that complexity?

(48:50) >> Yeah. And, you know, we've seen some of our competitors, they just won't hire that age. Um, I don't think that's the right answer. I I like the I like the >> fresh thinking and approach that >> um that generation brings and I want them around me but um you know it's the balance of of be yourself but also there's some things that you need to learn to be successful and I don't know I I I'm looking for that balance all the time myself on >> yeah I don't think right it's a lifelong journey being yourself but also growing and developing that's a what everybody would hopefully wants to do or would like to do. So, very good place to end it. Matt, thank you for the podcast.

(49:31) Appreciate your time and uh thanks for being a guest on on the revenue book replacement podcast. >> You bet. Thank you.