The ROAR Podcast: Chris Bevilacqua, Smash Capital

# The ROAR Podcast: Chris Bevilacqua, Smash Capital
**Guest:** Chris Bevilacqua
**Date:** 2026-04-30
**YouTube URL:** [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dMMYItgqI8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dMMYItgqI8)
**Source:** YouTube auto-generated captions (no speaker diarization)

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[00:05] College sports is in an enormous state of flux and the people trying to fix it are working at the intersection of government, private equity, and the future of American higher education. Chris Bevvela has spent four decades at that intersection. He's a senior adviser at Rothschild & Company, a partner at Smash Sports, a private equity firm operated in the college sports space, and an independent board director at PlayFly Sports. If you

[00:36] want to understand the business of college athletics, Chris is one of the few people talking directly to senators, athletic directors, and institutional investors all at the same time. In this conversation, Adam and Chris break down the $5 billion annual deficit threatening the sustainability of college sports. Why Chris believes media rights for college football are worth nearly four times what they're currently fetching. How private capital could serve as a bridge financing over the next eight years. And what role real

[01:08] estate and artificial intelligence will play in reshaping the college sports model for the long term. If you're interested in or currently working in the college sports landscape or like me are an enormous fan, this is a can't miss episode. I'm Bryce Clinton and this is the Roar Podcast. Welcome to the Roar Podcast. I'm your host, Adam Gman. With me today is Chris Bealaka. Chris, welcome to the show. >> All right. Thanks for having me back on,

[01:39] Adam. Great to see you. >> Yeah, third time's a charm on the intro. So, [laughter] we'll start rolling from here. Uh, Chris is uh this is the second time on what was the Revenue Above Replacement podcast, now the Roar Podcast. So, for those who want to hear more about Chris's background, you can uh jump into the previous podcast, but we're really going to focus on what's happened since the last podcast. So, we recorded the last podcast in 2023. A lot's happened to Chris and a lot's happened in the world of sports that Chris has uh can have expert insight on. So, let's start from there. So, what's happened since

[02:10] the last podcast? Oh my gosh. You're I mean it doesn't feel like it was 2023. That's Imagine that. That's like three years ago. >> It's unbelievable. Yeah. I I couldn't believe it either when I saw it. So >> Well, geez. In the in the media world, it's that's like dog years. I mean, it's like uh years like 30 years. >> Well, I say I was going to say even more than dog years. It's seems like a lot longer. Like 50 years. 30. I'll go with 30. But 50 feels like >> it's you know, like you said, it has been quite interesting. I mean, especially for someone that spent my

[02:41] entire career in this industry, I've never seen the change and the and the pace of change that I've seen over the last several years, it is remarkable. But, you know, like I'm spending my time these days. I've got senior adviser at Rothschild working as kind of their sports guy on the on the platform. So, seeing a lot of interesting things in the M&A and financing worlds. And then uh more recently I uh became a a partner at Smash Sports which is a private

[03:11] equity company that's operating in in college sports space right now and then also uh took on a board role at PlayFly Sports as an independent board director. So, you know, a lot of my time has been spent around college and amateur sports and my career, but more recently, um, you know, the last few years in the world of college sports has been nothing short of remarkable >> with all the chaos and dislocation coming out of all the litigation that's

[03:43] happened over the last number of years. Um, you know, I think the whole a lot of what I'm spending time on these days is trying to help organize, if you will, some structure around college sports longer term. And >> there's been quite a bit in the news about all that recently going back to, you know, more re most recently Trump's executive order. >> Yeah. just came out a couple weeks ago and then various committees that have been put together coming out of the the

[04:14] roundt that he hosted uh I guess it was about a month and a half ago and then probably most importantly of all of it is what's happening on the legislative side and that's those are the the bills that have been being negotiated and discussed in Congress right the score act the safe act >> the most recent one, the competitive, I think it's called the College Sports Competitive Act, the one that's been put forth by Senator Schmidt, Senator Kwell,

[04:44] first bipartisan piece of legislation in six years that has come out, which has been a I think a very positive development. So there's a lot of, you know, obviously a lot of smart people looking at how to, you know, help structure and organize college sports so that it has a lasting positive impact in the future, which I would certainly be in favor of. >> Yeah. And part of the reason we, you know, we caught up a little bit last week and part of the reason I want to jab on the podcast is specifically to talk about what you just talked about,

[05:14] particularly because you're talking and have spoken to senators, to congressmen, their staff, you know, about this issue. This issue as you mentioned has bipartisan support which is very rare obviously for issues in DC or increasingly rare at least I should say uh for issues particularly on the federal level. So you know what are you talking to them about you know what what's going on from your perspective how has the legislation been coming along? Yeah, I mean I think um you know broadly speaking there, you know, and I'm one of many that are invested in

[05:46] involved in um you know, in all these conversations, you know, and I think the the I was going to just say you're the guy at Roch. You're also the guy for the Senate and Congress, I assume, right? You're the the main guy, right, that they're talking to. >> Who's that now? You're talking about >> you're talking you. Yeah, you're the main guy, right? You're the guy you're the guy Congress. You got to be the guy everywhere, right? got to be one of the guys anyway. >> No, I think you know listen the the the only way this is going to get um you know some stability is going to come back into this whole remember this is a

[06:18] a gigantic ecosystem right that it's a platform you know we think of college football and basketball the two most visible uh sports but there's 35 other men's and women's sports and it's a platform that involves 550,000 athletes. It has 1100 colleges and universities. It's a a massive platform that also is the feeder system to the Olympic movement worldwide. I mean if if you just look at where all all the athletes

[06:48] that compete in the Olympics where they come from and the vast majority of them are coming through the American collegiate sport system. So this is involves uh a lot of a lot of communities, a lot of universities, a lot of obviously a lot of student athletes, a lot of fans and alumni and it really is the only system in the entire world where you could get a world-class education and compete at athletics at the highest level. And that system that has served our country so well over the last 100 plus years is is

[07:22] now under enormous stress. And there's been um I think a a much more focused effort now over the past several years to try to put some long-term stability back into the platform. And what's happening through through all these various conversations and various constituencies now bubbling up to legislation on a federal level. Yeah. >> And the legislation really is designed to kind of hit three major areas. The first being the the cost problem, right?

[07:54] Costs are out of control. We now have revenue sharing and we now have NIL and revenue sharing really, you know, it's supposed to be a cap but it's really not a cap. It's just a floor. And then you add NIL which is uncapped. >> Yeah. Just to stop there because I've heard the same thing and people maybe like they particular audience, right? From a cap to a floor like what do you mean from a cap to a floor? What do you >> meaning? Yeah. Meaning like when the House litigation was settled, right, and the and the $2.8 billion settlement that

[08:25] was going to be used to pay athletes from the past and then put in place for the next 10 years a revenue sharing option that starts at $20.5 million in year one and then rises over the course of the next 10 years. And that $20.5 million is now revenue that athletic departments can share directly with athletes. So that just added another 20.5 million per year onto athletic

[08:56] department budgets that were already 20 to $25 million a year in deficit. >> Correct? >> So now you have the average deficit across division one, let's just say FBS, 138 U football schools at roughly $40 million. So you're talking about an industry that is operating in $5 billion a year in deficit. That is not sustainable. Okay. So even if you the legislation that's being discussed is among the things is how do we put caps

[09:27] on all these outofcontrol costs. So even if you came up with the idea of a cap, all you'd be doing is you'd lock the system in at losing or operating in deficit of $5 billion per year. >> Well, that that's not sustainable. >> Yeah. On that front, I think one of the things that people talk about is yes, you're playing paying players more, but coaches, administrators, salaries have all gone up. And do you think part of the this deficit reduction is not just looking at the athlete side but

[09:59] obviously looking at you know the kind of the cost structure of these athletic departments and administrators coaches as that's something we should be looking at as well. >> Yeah. I mean I think you you'll hear like one example is agents. I think you're going to have you're going to have clearly something that looks more like the professional leagues that have to certify agents. come there'll be some requirement to have agent certification and caps on commission fee structures right now 25 30% is crazy that's not the

[10:32] market for for these kinds of these kinds of so I think those kinds of things are going to get addressed on the coaches side I'm not really sure you know like this is still the free market right coaches are going to provide services and good ones are going to get paid well and and you know bad ones are going to get fired it'll continue to work like that. But the the cost really more is is when I say cost structure, this is around things like like eligibility, right? And transfers. So

[11:02] there's a lot being discussed now around whether it's five years for five years or five years for four years. And you can't transfer every year like this annual free agency obviously drives up cost. So putting some, you know, some governors around that will be, I think, a key part of what's being discussed legislatively that will have real, you know, cost controls, so to speak, put on it. So you have you have all the things around, you know, legislation that are going to attempt to address, you know, the let's just say the cost issues. Then

[11:34] you have the other big big bucket is, okay, once you've addressed cost where we have a platform that is is massively undermonetized, right? And so you've heard the some of the the data, right? As an example, the NBA who just did their recent media deals has half the audience of college football, but yet they get twice the revenue. >> Right. Exactly. >> So there's a huge undermonetization aspect to especially college, you know,

[12:05] college football and basketball to name the two that are the revenue drivers of the entire platform. Those are massively undermonetized given the structure of how media rights agreements work. And like just in football alone is a good example. Four billion dollars a year right now for 12 deals, right? Those are the 10 conferences. Notre Dame, the CFP. So imagine if you had if you got paid the same way for the audience that's

[12:37] twice the NBA. That 4 billion should be more like 15 billion. Okay. So, there there's a massive undervalued undervaluation of college football right now. And so, the idea Oh, go ahead. I was just say to hold on that point because I think this is like really your sweet spot. You're like uniquely qualified when it comes to media rights, college sports, and um you know, you mentioned $15 billion. You I think they're and I really want to hold on the point about revenue increases because I think not that to be clear, I agree with

[13:08] you about coaches and administrators. there's a market rate and it's not like that should be held back but I do think you know from a cost issue and a structural issue in terms of profitability and net negative cash flows potentially there is an underization clearly and we could talk about your role at playfly and how you guys are helping from that perspective and we talked a lot about that with Craig in a previous Craig Sloan the CEO of PlayFi in a previous episode but do you think the gap really could be $15 billion if the college sports rights you know do you think there's enough um

[13:39] demand and there's enough pe there's enough entities that'd be willing to pay for it. Do you think given all the other things particularly if the NFL rights come to market could colleges get up to you think $15 billion or somewhere in between that 4 to$15 billion? Well, I think it's whatever it ends up being if and when they're able to unify, come up with a unified structure. Uh, and you can't really do that. Every most people know, right? There's a whole bunch of existing contractual arrangements in place which uh will have to run their

[14:10] course that get you all the way out to 2034. So the the way to think about it is what is the market going to look like in 2034 if you're able to take what what is about 4 billion viewer hours which is a massive chunk of engagement and put that into the market in 2034 with um you know lots of competition. >> Okay. And I can tell you what the math

[14:40] says. The math says, "All right, well, if the audience if if those four billion viewer hours are getting properly compensated in a highly competitive market eight years from now, what's that worth?" >> Yeah. >> Worth a hell of a lot more than four billion, >> right? Ex. That's the point. Exactly. >> Yeah. So, whatever it is, it's going to be a lot more than it is in today's current construct. >> My sense is that that's kind of the that's kind of the low mark. I mean, you know, then you start thinking about in a

[15:13] in a unified structure, what can you do to be on the like in a world of personalization, in a world of technology, you know, where where you're looking to use high quality sports to mitigate churn as an example and lower customer acquisition costs and in a world of streaming streaming, right? Like right now, this year was the first time ever that more more content was viewed streaming than it was on linear,

[15:43] right? So now the majority of the way that most people are consuming content now, especially live sports, is going to be in it's a streaming first strategy. And guess what? There's a handful of multi-trillion dollar streaming companies that like live sports. Right. So >> what's that all worth in 2034 with four billion viewer hours just for football. >> Right. Exactly. >> Okay. So and everything else on top of that. My sense is it's going to be worth quite a bit, you know, on the on the

[16:15] competitive front. I mean the NFL is testing that right now, right? because they have this well-reported option uh to reopen their agreements before the you know remember they were originally 11-year agreements and they can open them up after year six or seven and you know they're they're now contemplating doing that and that's what's being discussed right now like what what's NFL and an open market worth so they too

[16:47] have multiple billion dollars of viewer hours or multiple billions of viewer hours to bring back into the market should they decide to do so. >> Yeah. And how how much one I completely agree with you and two I think you know I I would curious to get your take on how you would advise conference commissioners and senior leaders at universities about this specific issue given how important it is given everything that you said. Um but also want to say h how much when you're talking to uh on the government side, public official side, how much are you

[17:18] getting into this with them? How much they understand this and how much do you think these future conversations, let's say the 2034 conversation uh shapes legislative considerations now? Well, there has been quite a bit of discussion around this and again this is this all goes back to um you know the the goals of legislation. One solve the cost problem. Two need a revenue solution. >> Yeah, >> this is the revenue solution. So

[17:48] >> I I think there's for sure been broad agreement on that uh those issues. And then you have like the rest of is like it's governance issue like all right what entity now is going to have whatever limited liability protection Congress can offer and whatever antirust protection Congress can offer under this new legislation right this has to go into somebody has to has to oversee and control all that and then you got to figure out all right >> just just to hold on that you know obviously traditionally that's been the

[18:19] NCAA right or at least in so what are you do you think it will be the NCAA pay or you know obviously still be determined. >> I think that'll be kind of an open even after there's legislation. My sense is that whatever entity receives these benefits um they they will figure that out as time goes on because that entity is going to have specific obligations in order to receive all of those kinds of protections. And whether it's the NCA or some other

[18:49] version of the CFP as an example or some new entity, so long as that new entity is fulfilling all their obligations under the, you know, the way the the legislation would theoretically work, it could it could be any any of the above. But I think that's I don't know. I can't tell you how how that's going to work work itself out. >> Yeah. And totally makes sense. It's just, you know, I think historically, obviously, as you're saying, there's going to be an entity involved in in helping to make this move this forward. It's historically been the NCAA.

[19:19] Obviously, been a lot of back and forth, to put it mildly, controversy about where the NCA's role in this. And another area that you've talked about previously is the college sports commission. And about, you know, what role do you see in what you're thinking about or the long-term vision, what role do you see for that as well? Well, I think I'm not sure about the College Sports Commission specifically, but again, going back to the, you know, whatever legislation might somebody's going to have to enforce whatever these new set of rules are,

[19:50] >> right? So whether that's the College Sports Commission or some other mechanism inside of this soon to be or eventual entity that would have these kinds of protections, liability protections or antitrust protections, whatever it may be, they're still going to have to have a way to enforce all of it. And so whatever that mechanism is, it could be the CS or some new version of that, but the current current version of that hasn't really worked so well.

[20:22] So, uh, so I don't I don't know how that plays over the next few years. I mean, they're obviously trying to get all the membership to sign up to, you know, the the I guess the contractual commitments to let CSC be the be the enforcer and that has not, you know, seems like it's still kind of stuck in neutral. >> So whether it's the C, CSC, NCA, this another new entity otherwise I again

[20:53] agreed about enforcement action. So from your perspective, what are some, you know, I think you've highlighted it, but what are some key points that you'd like to see in bipartisan legislation to really move the needle and make this something that can really have a substantial impact on the collegiate, you know, sports space? >> I think it it's going to have to touch all three of those areas that we just discussed. I mean, for sure, you got to have a revenue solution, and I think the unification under the SBA or some new version of that is clearly um a major move in that direction. Then on the

[21:25] other side, you know, on on I hope that whether it's in the statute or it's it's required by the new entity, we have to come up with or someone has to come up with eligibility and transfer rules that are sensible. And then, you know, it's hard to imagine that any of this works without having the athletes at the table when you're talking about rule making. >> Yeah. So, I don't know that it's, you know, it's traditional what you would

[21:56] what we would typically refer to as collective bargaining. I don't know that it'll go that far and how athletes get uh characterized. You know, I I I know there's been a big debate about whether it's employee or non-emp employee or independent contract, whatever it is, right? There's there's going to have athletes are going to have to have a say. I it just would seem impossible to come up with something that has bipartisan support that doesn't somehow have the athletes at the table when you're talking about working conditions.

[22:28] I don't see how that happens. >> And from your perspective, what does sensible transfer rules look like? Are you talking maybe limitations on the number of transfers? >> Yeah, I don't I don't think you you I mean, let's start what it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be annual free agency for everyone. Like that seems silly, right? that just creates chaos and lots of bad behaviors. So, I think a sensible rule is kind of back to, you know, part of what it used to be, which is you get one transfer during your four years or five

[22:59] years, however long they decide it should be, unless there's some extenduating circumstances. My coach left, he recruited me or she recruited me, and then she left. If I've already transferred, I ought I ought to have another opportunity to go in that kind of circumstance. Otherwise, it's one year and if you do it again, then you got to sit out a year. That's kind of back in the day a version of what it used to be. So, I think that would be that to me sounds sensible. And uh I think we should note here is that we previously I um a student of mine in the

[23:31] masters of sports administration at Northwestern, he did a systematic analysis of transfers in the pre and post kind of NIL era. And he found that the current market is functioning like a labor market with incentives structured in a way that not not everyone but in general players were maximizing their incentives which was either more playing time or this was only focused on college sports on more playing time or a better path to the NFL and you know was basically functioning like you would expect a labor market and a functional

[24:02] labor market to operate. And I think one of the things that's interesting from my perspective is you can do an academic analysis to you know what people are seeing on a day-to-day basis particularly at top schools. You know I think you have to kind of hopefully merge both of those together. But from your perspective, you know, I guess does that shift or change if you're seeing it like on a holistic kind of more academic study basis? Cuz I I don't think it will necessarily, but does that shift your perspective at all on transfer rules or what you think sensible transfer rules would look like if you are seeing like

[24:34] this function? You know, that's not the only thing to consider for sure in college sports, but if that's one of the factors, does that shape or alter your opinion on what you think about like for sensible transfer rules? Um, well, I I mean, I guess I suppose it could, but um, you know, the the one one thing that I'd love to see, I'm more a little a little more old school on this. I mean, go back to what I said at the top, like this this is the only system in the world where you can get a world-class

[25:05] education and compete in athletics at the highest level. So, I'd love for there to be some requirement, some minimum standard of being an athlete, like you're going to class, like you're trying to get a degree, >> right? Like, let's let's have the incentives aligned such that it respects the fact that this athletic platform sits inside of a higher education platform. So if you want the benefits of being a a college sports athlete, which clearly

[25:38] you know in a world of NIL and revenue share and hopefully some sensible transfer, you you will get great benefits and so but shouldn't there be some tethering to the educational mission in order to get those benefits? That would be a view that I would want to see. >> Yeah. And one thing from a labor market perspective, right? You don't just work and go, you know, you have to there's organization culture, organizational or institutional knowledge, culture, relationships. It's not like even if

[26:09] you're an employee, you just get to do whatever you want. Like that's not the case. I think it's just I think it's exactly what you're saying. Shouldn't there be a marriage of these different factors to come up with a sensible solution? Which I think totally makes sense. It's just I think that that was what was so interesting about Mac or at least from my perspective about Max's paper is I think there are and I think even now I would say like what you would before I read this paper I had a similar point of view about transfers and like this seemed to be like happening a lot and then looking at it systematically I think there's probably a little more nuance at least from my perspective. I'm

[26:40] not going to obviously speak on your uh it goes to Go ahead. Sorry. No, I I agree with you. Yeah. >> Yeah. And it goes to another question. It's kind of from my perspective, you know, like you said, you've been talking to directly to legislature, legislators on this topic. Has there been anything that's come up from those conversations that you think would be surprising or not something you expected to think about or consider as they're trying to put together this legislation? No, I mean I I suppose I was surprised in the beginning, but now that I've been

[27:11] around this for a few years, uh uh you know, it's it's interesting that everyone kind of goes back to their ideological corners, Republicans and Democrats, right? And it becomes like it's a political issue. And you know, realize now we're both American citizens and you realize why it's been really difficult, especially over the last number of, you know, congresses. why it's so hard to pass legislation. And >> this one, I actually believe this one is

[27:42] really one that truly is bipartisan. Like, >> who the heck doesn't want us to succeed, you know, in college sports and college athletics and higher education. Like and you know you you realize also that the federal government is providing grant and aid in in billions of dollars a year to all these state you know my including my alma mada Penn State like or a billion dollars a year is coming from the federal government to Penn State for research grants not to mention a few

[28:12] hundred million dollars from the state and and that plays itself out across the country. And so there really is an alignment here that and a political alignment. But these are very tough issues, right? When you when you get down to the heart of it. So like employee status, right? Or non-employee status. You have you know one political party that you know is very supportive of unions, another political party that's anti-UN. So, you know, those are

[28:43] hard things to bridge the gap on, which is why this has been taken so long. And so, I definitely have a different appreciation to how hard the legislators are working on this. And you know there there really is are are sticky issues to get through but from everything I've seen there's a lot of good faith you know bargaining going on on both sides and there's a lot of well-meaning on both sides and trying to really bridge the gap on you know tough political

[29:14] issues. >> Yeah. And something we talked about is, you know, obviously President Trump has both spotlighted public support of universities, we'll put it that way, in several times, but also just this specific issue about NIL and having, you know, executive orders on that front. I think from we both agreed at least we're not trying to make this a political whether you agree with what he's doing or not. It's clearly, you know, obviously shown an additional spotlight on the issue and that has an impact in any kind of legislative process. >> Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I

[29:44] don't I don't really believe that executive orders they they don't really have any teeth or any legislative authority and and all that is likely to happen is more litigation around >> even though a lot of what's in these executive orders seems sensible, but the end of the day, you know, we live in a world where Congress makes the laws. If we want something that's lasting, it has to be done through the legislative process. But I do think that President

[30:14] Trump's interest and all the visibility around this has turned this into a net positive in that it's created a little bit of urgency around a very high-profile issue and it's one that a lot of people care about. So I think it's created some urgency and some momentum that I, you know, I'm hopeful is going to lead to legislation this summer and that would be an amazing outcome. >> Yeah. Yeah. And one of the other things I think you're uniquely qualified to talk about is, you know, institutional

[30:45] capital, private capital, particularly, you know, either from the legislative process and how legislator thinks about that, but just more broadly about, you know, we talked about the cost gap and some increases in cost and, you know, a popular solution at least is to consider outside capital or institutional capital. So, one, you know, you talk about that, we could talk about that more broadly in terms of your experience. into obviously Smash Sports is entering and has entered that space and kind of what you guys are doing to enter that space as well. >> Yeah, we'll start with the beginning

[31:17] which is we have a system that's $5 billion a year and counting in deficit. Okay. And it's not sustainable. So shortterm, let's try to get legislation in place that will help us put some stability back in the platform and then eventually as a part of that legislation, let's have this revenue uh revenue fix where we have unification of media rights and that can't really occur until another eight years from now. So

[31:48] somewhere between now and eight years from now when you're operating at $5 billion a year of deficit going up, you know, it's hard to imagine that that we can keep doing the things the way that we're doing without some help. So that's where we and there are others that are trying to do you know look at similar opportunity to deploy capital and it's almost like bridge capital like how do I get from this side of the river to the other side of the river which is eight

[32:19] years from now like I'm going to need help in between and that's really where I think we we fit in and uh others that are um looking to deploy capital in a way and then you know if you're if you're one of those that are in 40 to $50 million a year in deficit. You know, you want to you want to have capital that comes in the cheapest form or the least expensive form. Not only in cost of capital, but then you have governance issues and like, okay, if I give you

[32:50] money, like any investor, I'm going to want a say in how you run your business, right? So, so the the the capital that will have to come into the system in order to keep it solvent over the next 8 to 10 years has to come in in a way that works not only for the investor but for the university and do it on terms and do it under conditions that are are fair. And I think that that's where we're trying to thread the needle. >> Yeah, I think that totally makes sense.

[33:21] But what does that mean like more tactically, right? I think people are trying to solve this. You know, college administrators, particularly those who don't necessarily have a strong finance background, but even institutional capital that's been looking to get in the college space. Like what does all that mean? How does that actually become at least from your perspective? What is one pathway for it to become operational? >> Yeah. Well, so the the current way they've been doing it, which again isn't sustainable, which is like at my alma mada, well, we we we raise donations and know we get money from the federal government, we get money from the state

[33:52] government and okay, well, we're still at a we still operate at a deficit. So, we increase costs to students, we charge student fees, we charge we raise tuition, and you know, the taxpayers are then paying for it. So, that's just not sustainable, right? So are you know coming up with a way you know legislation that's going to address a lot of these issues in the longer term. It's now like how are you you know what's actionable? So, schools are now starting to consider, you saw this with

[34:22] the Utah oot deal, right? They created uh they they essentially sold 49% of their uh athletics department, but that comes with governance, you know, like I haven't seen the agreement. I don't think they put that the agreement out there, but you know, that's you're you're selling a lot of your upside now in order to get money now, right? So, that's that's what I would describe as very expensive capital. Now, it may work for Utah because, you know, that's the they've decided that they need help now

[34:53] and this is the way they're going to do it. I think there are other flavors of that where, you know, there's potentially different ways to do it and the cost of capital isn't as great and the governance issues can be addressed. So, I I do think that you're going to see a handful of these things. I wouldn't call them experimental because they'll be real deals, but they'll they're not all going to be cut from the same cloth. And so I think that, you know, in the near term, if you're a president or an athletic director and

[35:23] you're looking at, all right, I'm I'm operating at 40 plus million dollars a year of deficit. How am I going to keep my 25 or 30 men's and women's sports operating in a way that's consistent with what I've done in the past? If I don't if I don't have some help here, you can only ask your alumni to donate so much. You can only keep raising tuition. you can keep raising the fees to attend athletic event like it's there's just there's not a lot lot of there. >> Yeah. I mean I think from the ultra deal

[35:54] functions more like an equity arrangement if not entirely an equity arrangement where it sounds like um maybe not smash specifically but maybe yes smash specifically looking at more loan instruments or debt instruments to help finance. Is that when you're saying lower or less expensive >> capital? No, I think I think that's right. There's different flavors to all these things and finding the the sweet spot I think will you know will be what kind of comes out over the next year or two about how what's the best way to do this. >> Yeah. And you're talking and that's kind

[36:24] of what I want to get at is like you're talking to college administrators and both sides right you're talking to LPS you know capital partners in addition to so how much is that like for lack of a term understood like the you know cost of capital where your capital sources could come from what this kind of structural gap looks like and how it could be financed let's just call it the 8 year gap which I think is right like there's a media you know in 2034 like we as we talked about but h how much of that is kind of understood by both sides like what the differences are and what

[36:55] the issues are and how this could be solved. >> Yeah. I mean, it's still very early days. I mean, like I said earlier, there's only been one or actually two, the Michigan State one, which happened a few months ago. But suffice to say, I think what it has done is it's ignited a lot of these discussions. And, you know, I think that universities aren't really set up to do these kind of things. So, it's there's a little bit of a learning curve. So, you know, that's one of the things having spent 40-year career in the sports business with a vast majority

[37:25] being college sports like uh we have a lot of relationships on campus these days and you know these are these are early discussions and you know there's a lot of education that has to go on like you know universities aren't really set up to to do these kind of things yet. I mean we're you know that's all part of like the learning curve. So, I think it will take a little bit of time and like like most things in the sports business, you always have, you know, a bunch of early movers and then you got a, you know, a whole slew

[37:56] of fast followers and then you have, you know, the lagards, right? That'll that'll I'm sure be the the way this thing goes in college over the next couple of years. >> Yeah. So, you know, one question I get a lot and I curious to hear your feedback on it is what it like what's the best way to educate university particularly university folks on the you know financial terms for lack of almost like there's some irony I guess in saying getting an MBA or giving university administrators an MBA in finance but what are the best ways to to kind of bridge this gap

[38:27] >> yeah I mean it's it's definitely you know labor intensive in that you know you do have to spend the time but most of these end up being like bespoke Right? They get kind of customized depending on, you know, I like to say they're like snowflakes. They're all beautiful and they're all different, right? So, you have to, you know, develop some rapport, a lot of which our group has a lot of connectivity on campuses these days. And then you got to spend time specific under the tent and

[38:58] understanding exactly, you know, what the finances look like and and then really kind of designing something based on the the objectives that meets, you know, meets their needs. So, and that all takes time. Doesn't just, you know, send me over your your P&L and we'll send you an offer. It's it's it's much more thoughtful than that. And and one one last piece a couple of final questions as we get towards the end of the episode is you know obviously Serge is sponsor power and helping to

[39:28] power this podcast we focus on mixeduse developments in real estate. How much is real estate entered the conversation or discussion on your side on the smash side or as you're talking university administrators? >> Yeah. So again like like snowflakes all different all there are some >> that you know it's really really it's like a sources and uses. Okay, I need X money. I want to take Y of the X and I want to put it into real estate development. That's all something that's done on that side. >> Yeah. >> And that's all part of like the mosaic.

[39:59] When you sit down with someone, you kind of learn what their objectives are. And you know, they care about getting the quantum of capital they need to do all the things they want to do. And they want to get it the least expensive way that they can get it. But they also have you know one of the things that we also bring is we have lots of experience and operating experience in college >> right >> and there are things that we can do as a part of not only deploying some capital but there are things we can do on an advisory basis to help them think about

[40:30] this you know in a longer term way and that's I think is is definitely an important value ad here that maybe others that are just deploying capital and don't have as much as we might our group that is. So I think that's also another factor in this and real estate one of those things on the you know yeah and I don't know if you're seeing anything specifically as they see real estate as it unlock from a revenue or capital you know institutional capital perspective or to your point is it just another from their primarily one more

[41:02] thing to look at from an institutional capital perspective. Yeah. I think I wouldn't say I've seen it as like the primary reason. It's just it's part of the it's part of the whole overall solution. Yeah. >> Yeah. And one of the last questions and this is a question we're we're trying to ask all of our guests now is the influence of artificial intelligence. You've obviously whether it's through Simplev or previous ventures that we discussed. You've operated at the forefront from a technology perspective on a variety of different technologies and a variety of different fields. When you're thinking about college sports, do

[41:34] you think AI could have a disproportionate impact on college sports or what role do you see AI in the conversations you're having either in terms of legislation, the things you're doing at at Smash or even things that you're looking at from a a PlayFi perspective? >> Wouldn't say that AI has been like top of mind in any of the current stuff. I I will say though and that I do think that AI is a long-term net positive. And you know, like I say, just about my my position in the sports industry. I mean,

[42:05] when you look at assets, at the end of the day, these are, and you've seen this in pro sports, and it's a lot more professionalized, but when you look at these, these are really IP assets, intellectual property assets. And at the heart of an intellectual property is you've got a live event business, you've got a media business, got a sponsorship business, a ticketing business, a real estate business, and then most importantly, I think a a data business. >> Yeah. And as we move into a world of

[42:36] hyperpersonalization and all the data that's around all the IP and and this is where AI comes in like how do I how do I take all that data and organize it in a way to to make it useful to my ultimate objectives here and I think AI is going to be like rocket fuel on on that part of this whole business. Short answer is ask Roar and Serge about that if you want to know how to organize your data using >> extra commercial.

[43:07] >> There you go. We didn't even plan that one. That was just a natural plug. So Chris, thank you very much for being a guest again uh on the now the Roar podcast. Appreciate your insights. This is very valuable. I'm sure our audience is going to get a lot of value out of this conversation. >> Excellent. Hey, thanks again for having me on and it be good to stay in touch.